Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2004/10/01

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Subject: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
From: bdcolen at earthlink.net (B. D. Colen)
Date: Fri Oct 1 10:23:47 2004

Looks pretty impressive...and at that price? Wow..

-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
animal
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 12:57 PM
To: Leica Users Group
Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon


I don,t know have you seen it allready?
http://www.cameraquest.com/voigtr2ar3a.htm
simon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>
To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org>
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 4:29 PM
Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon


> I knew you were too damn smart to fall for that crap, Simon...and how 
> is the R3A?...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
> [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf 
> Of animal
> Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 10:03 AM
> To: Leica Users Group
> Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> 
> 
> Sure thats why i happily ordered a R3A to take advantage of the 
> photokina no international shipping deal. But still in general most 
> people are occupied with branding. Sorry for the yuckspeak simon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>
> To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org>
> Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 3:38 PM
> Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> 
> 
> > Hey, Simon...The statement anyone makes with branded accessories
> > is..."Look at me"...If one owns a Ferrari, and one really owns it 
> > because one loves fast, hot cars, one doesn't need all the branded 
> > accessories. On the other hand, if one owns it to make up for some 
> > deficiency, then wants to yell to the world, "Look at me! I am
really,
> 
> > really hot shit!! I can afford to own a ...Ferrari/Leica/Rollex/case
> > of Budweiser... ;-)"
> >
> > I have always avoided branded stuff...Either I like and need the 
> > item,
> 
> > or I don't...
> >
> > This really is one of those amusing, ironic, LUG moments...Because I
> > can remember all the discussion over the years that could be summed
up
> 
> > with the line, to paraphrase James Carvil..."It's the glass, 
> > stupid!"
> > People on this list have always told us that a body is just a box
onto
> 
> > which one mounts the incomparable Leica glass. So if some other
> > manufacturer can give me a really good quality M mount body, which 
> > will take my 35 Summ ASPH, or my 28 Summicron ASPH, great! I'd
rather 
> > save $500 or $1K on the body and be able to put it into film or
glass.
> >
> > Bottom line - Anyone who would even think about what other people
> > would think if they saw a Noctilux - or any other lens - on a less 
> > expensive body - is more concerned about their own image than about 
> > the images the lens produces.  ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
> > [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf
> > Of animal
> > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 4:55 AM
> > To: Leica Users Group
> > Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> >
> >
> > Hi, B.D. Well a lot of literature states that a retrofocus design 
> > like
> 
> > that of the Schneider? R lens is better suited in principle but i 
> > dont
> 
> > know for sure. The way people make statements with their acessories
> > cannot be ignored i mean Ferrari owners don,t make a statement with 
> > their driving skills do they? simon
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>
> > To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 11:05 PM
> > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> >
> >
> > > Hi, Simon - Obviously I don't know the answer to the last 
> > > question,
> > > although someone earlier suggested that the Zeiss designs might 
> > > indeed
> >
> > > be better suited to use with digital sensor cropping. No, I 
> > > wouldn't
> 
> > > expect Leica people will switch - why should they? The question is
> > > whether Zeiss can grow the market. As to mount a Noct on a Zeiss
and
> 
> > > what kind of statement does it make? Gee, I thought we make our
> > > statements with our photos, and not with our brand names....And if

> > > the
> >
> > > Zeiss is as good as an M but cheaper, I'd be happy to tell people
> > > that
> >
> > > I'm not stupid enough to pay extra just to get a red dot. ;-) Or,
> > > put another way I'd be happy to tell people that what matters is
the
> 
> > > glass, and by purchasing the cheaper body I could afford the
> > > expensive
> >
> > > lens. Best B. D.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
> > > [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On 
> > > Behalf
> 
> > > Of animal
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:11 PM
> > > To: Leica Users Group
> > > Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> > >
> > >
> > > I didn,t try to engage you in a discussion about lens performance
> > > data. Your 4.5 versus 2.8 remark deflates my Voigh.. remark 
> > > obviously . I just believe that if the lenses are not better then 
> > > Leica's people
> >
> > > will not make a switch. Also to me the newborn doesn,t look as 
> > > nice
> > > as
> >
> > > a M. Another good reason not to buy one. Significantly brighter
> > > viewfinder would be nice of course. But mount a Noctilux on a
Zeiss?
> 
> > > What kind of statement does that make other then i don,t want to
> > > spend
> >
> > > a thousand more on a real Leica? Would the new lenses be better
> > > suited
> >
> > > for a full frame digital sensor?
> > >
> > > best regards
> > > simon
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>
> > > To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org>
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 12:30 AM
> > > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> > >
> > >
> > > > I'm not going to get into one of the lpm debates with you, Simon

> > > > -
> 
> > > > you
> > >
> > > > and I view these issues, and photography, from very different
> > > > perspectives.
> > > >
> > > > And, yes, why not use a Cosina 15? Well, it's an f 4.5 and this
> > > > will
> >
> > > > be a 2.8; it's seat-of-the-pants focused and this will be
> > > > rangefinder coupled; and my guess is this will have a better
build
> 
> > > > -
> >
> > > > all valid reasons even if image quality were no better. But I'm
> > > > certainly not against good image quality.
> > > >
> > > > B. D.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
> > > > [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On
> > > > Behalf
> >
> > > > Of animal
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 6:22 PM
> > > > To: Leica Users Group
> > > > Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well if performance is no factor then why not stay with the
> > > > existing
> >
> > > > cosina lenses like their 15mm,or put a sublime old 15 mm on a R?
> > > >
> > > > simon
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>
> > > > To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 12:10 AM
> > > > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > But that's the point, Simon - I'm not talking about
> > > > > "performance" of
> > >
> > > > > anything; I'm talking about availability of, and price of,
> > > > > product. And if Leica thinks the path to survival lays through

> > > > > winning a bunch of Erwin Puts bench tests by .xxx%, they're
dead
> 
> > > > > on arrival. Fractions
> > > >
> > > > > of percentages aren't going to matter - actually having a
> > > > > product will. If Leica can now turn on a dime and put out a
real
> 
> > > > > digital M
> >
> > > > > six
> > > >
> > > > > months from now - BEFORE Zeiss comes out with one - and price 
> > > > > it
> 
> > > > > so that it appeals to more than a handful of people for whom
> > > > > money
> >
> > > > > is no object, then they have a chance. If not...
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
> > > > > [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On
> > > > > Behalf
> > >
> > > > > Of animal
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 5:54 PM
> > > > > To: Leica Users Group
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > As you mentioned earlier i think ,nothing  is known about the
> > > > > real
> >
> > > > > performance of the new system. Isn,t it a bit premature to
> > > > > anounce
> >
> > > > > a
> > >
> > > > > winner before a match? best regards simon jessurun amsterdam
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>
> > > > > To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 10:53 PM
> > > > > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > IF that's Leica's response to an entire line of new Zeiss
> > > > > > t-star
> >
> > > > > > lenses, a film rangefinder body, and what will undoubtedly 
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > a digital body, then we most assuredly have the answer to
the 
> > > > > > question. Because if Leica survives as the Hermes of 
> > > > > > cameraland,
> >
> > > > > > it might as well not survive.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And there's another point to think about here, folks - Leica
> > > > > > is still around today for only one reason:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the early 1960s, Zeiss/Contax and Nikon abandoned the
> > > > > > pro-rangefinder playing field. Nikon, which made what was 
> > > > > > definitely
> > > >
> > > > > > the best body at that time - the SP - decided to put all its
> > > > > > eggs in
> > > >
> > > > > > the SLR basket, a decision which was a loss for those of us
> > > > > > who love
> > > >
> > > > > > rangefinders, but was obviously a winner for Nikon. And 
> > > > > > Contax
> 
> > > > > > must have decided that there wasn't going to be enough
> > > > > > rangefinder
> > >
> > > > > > business
> > > > >
> > > > > > to keep them going.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So that left the barren playing field to Leica, which, other
> > > > > > than improving it's lens line, hasn't done anything truly 
> > > > > > innovative since bringing out and abandoning the M5. And,
when
> 
> > > > > > you think about it, really hasn't done anything innovative
> > > > > > since
> >
> > > > > > the "O."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But because there have been enough photographers committed 
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > using rangefinders, and enough dilitants committed to owning

> > > > > > Leicas - and a scarf company willing to buy up a grand old 
> > > > > > brand
> >
> > > > > > name - Leica's limped along to the present day.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now, however, we are on the downward slope of the technology
> > > > > > range
> > >
> > > > > > taking us into the next age of photography. Any company that
> > > > > > wants
> > >
> > > > > > to survive in the new age is going to have to be a real part
> > > > > > of that
> > > >
> > > > > > age.
> > > > >
> > > > > > And up to this point, Leica has, as usual, limped along at 
> > > > > > the
> 
> > > > > > back end of the parade.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So this time Zeiss - well the 
> > > > > > Zeiss/Kyocera/Hassleblad/Contax
> > > > > > coalition
> > > > > > - has decided to stick around and pickup  the pieces. Unless

> > > > > > Leica
> > >
> > > > > > is prepared to move, and move very quickly - perhaps by
> > > > > > talking Nikon, Canon, or Olympus into a rangefinder 
> > > > > > partnership, Leica's
> >
> > > > > > days are, sadly, very much numbered. I say "sadly" with 
> > > > > > total
> > > > > > sincerity, because
> > > > > I
> > > > > > am enough of a traditionalist to be touched by the Leica
> > > > > > heritage
> > > > > > -
> > > > > I'd
> > > > > > rather be shooting in a new age with a grandchild of HCB's
> > > > > > M3s, than
> > > >
> > > > > > shooting with a Kocerstein's monster patched together with
> > > > > > parts
> >
> > > > > > from
> > > > > a
> > > > > > washing machine, a high-milage care, and a disposable 
> > > > > > camera.
> > > > > > :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > B. D.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
> > > > > > [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] 
> > > > > > On
> > > > > > Behalf
> > > >
> > > > > > Of Dan C
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 4:33 PM
> > > > > > To: Leica Users Group
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Leica has responded in part by offering the a la carte 
> > > > > > Leica.
> > > > > > But
> > >
> > > > > > have you
> > > > > > seen the prices?    Do I really want to spend upwards of
> $4,000
> > > USD
> > > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > privilege of picking the colour of my camera?  Are there
> > > > > > enough people
> > > > >
> > > > > > out there willing to do so to keep Leica afloat?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -dan c.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 04:26 PM 29-09-04 -0400, B. D. Colen wrote:
> > > > > > >Emanuel says..
> > > > > > >"The old era of Zeiss - Leitz rivalry was a heady time for
> > > > > > >35mm
> >
> > > > > > >design," and asks...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >"Now, in these days, how will Leica respond?"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >---
> > > > > > >As they, sadly, always have ... With too little, too late,
> > > > > > >and at
> > >
> > > > > > >too
> > > > >
> > > > > > >high a price.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >These are not the heady days of the Zeiss/Leitz competition

> > > > > > >-
> 
> > > > > > >which, if
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >we recall, were actually the days of the Zeiss/Leitz/Nikon
> > > > > > >competition.
> > > > > > >;-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >These are the days of the Zeiss/Kyocera/Cosina/Hassie
> > > > > > >consortium moving
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >in to clean up the remaining scraps from the rangefinder
> > > > > > >table
> > > > > > >- scraps
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >that could have been Leicas had Leica moved 18 months ago, 
> > > > > > >or
> 
> > > > > > >even further back, when the Cosina handwriting was writ 
> > > > > > >large
> 
> > > > > > >upon the wall.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Leica Users Group.
> > > > > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more
> > > > > > information
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Leica Users Group.
> > > > > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more
> > > > > > information
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Leica Users Group.
> > > > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more
> > > > > information
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Leica Users Group.
> > > > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more
> > > > > information
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Leica Users Group.
> > > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more
> > > > information
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Leica Users Group.
> > > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more
> > > > information
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Leica Users Group.
> > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more 
> > > information
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Leica Users Group.
> > > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more 
> > > information
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Leica Users Group.
> > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Leica Users Group.
> > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
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_______________________________________________
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Replies: Reply from s.jessurun95 at chello.nl (animal) ([Leica] Voigtlander Bessa R2A or R3A)
In reply to: Message from s.jessurun95 at chello.nl (animal) ([Leica] Re: New Zeiss Ikon)