Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2004/09/25

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Subject: [Leica] new 1ds mark II
From: leicagalpal at earthlink.net (Kit McChesney)
Date: Sat Sep 25 08:01:04 2004

B.D.--

This is true, and is going to be true, to some extent, for any product with
a prestigious brand name (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, SubZero, yaddayadda) but
overall, most folks who buy (at least those who buy from me, but I'm not the
biggest dealer in town) are buying because they think that the camera will
give them exponentially better performance in terms of image quality and
construction. I have yet to sell to anyone who seemed to be only
superficially interested in what the camera could do vs. how the camera
'looks' as an accessory item. 

When Leica introduced the D-LUX, though, they were definitely aiming for the
style market, and it would seem, for women. That's what those cute little
colored cases were all about. But almost 10 to one, folks who bought them
want black with the belt loop, or black with the red interior. The red,
sand, and green cases don't move as well. And most of the buyers are, as
with most Leica products, boys. ;-)

Kit

-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+leicagalpal=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+leicagalpal=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
B. D. Colen
Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 7:38 AM
To: 'Leica Users Group'
Subject: RE: [Leica] new 1ds mark II

No insult intended Don. :-) There are people who go for Leica M because
it is...Leica M. There are people who go for it for the build quality;
people who go for it for the glass; people who go for it for it for the
mythology. There are as many reasons for getting into it as there are
people who own it. But I think the snob appeal is definitely one of the
reasons.

-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
Don Dory
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 11:01 PM
To: 'Leica Users Group'
Subject: RE: [Leica] new 1ds mark II


B.D.

You said, But what do I know? Much of the Leica attraction seems to be
its high cost and exclusivity....

I can not really agree with that.  In the very late sixties I was
seduced away from a fairly complete Canon outfit by a lone MP and DR. In
the early nineties I was seduced again by what is now a pretty complete
M and R kit.  It has nothing to do with price or exclusivity, I tend to
buy battered and very cheap, and everything to do with the fact that the
Leica tools let me take the images that I want to take.  I still have
the Canon stuff, have the Hassy stuff, even acquired some Nikon stuff
for specific lenses.  What I come back to is the Leica stuff as it works
better for me as a tool.

I have even taken the advice of Dr. Blacktape and hidden all the red
dots.

YMMV of course.

Don
dorysrus@mindsprign.com

-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+dorysrus=mindspring.com@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+dorysrus=mindspring.com@leica-users.org] On Behalf
Of B. D. Colen
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:30 PM
To: 'Leica Users Group'
Subject: RE: [Leica] new 1ds mark II

Good points, Nathan. Although I think there should always be at least
some sort of bang for the buck equation. With the film cameras one can
make the argument that, as you say, they are built for the ages.
Certainly that is the case with the Ms, and given the number of still
functioning early flexes and Rs one sees for sale, it seems to be the
same for those cameras as well. Of course even with the longevity
factor, the stuff is all still over priced, but one enters Leica World
understanding that.

But I think that in this digital age the pricing question/justification
becomes ever more stark because of how far behind the curve Leica has
started; given what a limited offering the Rdigi is in terms of modern
features; and given what most of you say is the limited life-span of any
digital camera because of constant technology improvement.

Sorry, Juan, but the pricing of the Digi back makes even less sense than
the usual Leica pricing, rather than more, because for the price of the
Leica back, one can buy a complete Canon EOS 1D MarkII - the entire
camera body, 8 mpg sensor, with all the bells and whistles. While one
may not want all the bells and whistles, one does have to wonder what is
so stunningly spectacular about the Digi back that it justifies the
price of a top of the line camera body. 

I realize that there are development costs, etc. But I wonder...What do
you suppose would happen if Leica offered that back at cost? That's
right - at cost? Let's suppose that the back COSTS $1500 to produce.
Suppose they sold it for $1500, which would allow any Leica R owner to
get into high quality digital for $1500. And would allow anyone else to
get into high quality digital AND Leica for the $1500 plus the cost of a
used R8...How many R bodies would Leica then sell? How many R lenses?
I'm no business man, but I'll bet they would make allot more money in
the long run selling that thing at cost, bringing new Leicaphiles into
the Leicatent  than they'll ever make selling it at 4K plus...

But what do I know? Much of the Leica attraction seems to be its high
cost and exclusivity....

-----Original Message-----
From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
Nathan Wajsman
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 4:04 PM
To: Leica Users Group
Subject: Re: [Leica] new 1ds mark II


Juan Gea-Banacloche wrote:

> What baffles me is the pervasive comparison between Leica and Canon & 
> Nikon in terms of bang for the buck. Has Leica ever been "competitive"

> (value for money) in the SLR arena? My impression is that they stopped

> even trying decades ago. Don't get me wrong, the R8 and R9 may be
> absolutely wonderful machines, but do they offer more features (for a 
> similar cost) than the flagship Nikon or Canon? In this context, the 
> pricing of the Digital Module seems quite standard for the company (or

> even less disproportionate than usual).

The difference is that in the analog world, Leica can credibly make the 
claim that its cameras are in a class of their own, designed to last a 
lifetime. This is amply demonstrated by the number of Leicaflexes, M3s 
and LTMs still in use among members of this group, and I have no doubt 
that current M6s will prove equally durable. However, when Leica enters 
the digital arena, no such claim can be made, and so a comparison to 
other makers of digital cameras is much more relevant.

Nathan
-- 
Nathan Wajsman
Almere, The Netherlands

General photography: http://www.nathanfoto.com
Seville photography: http://www.fotosevilla.com


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Leica Users Group.
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_______________________________________________
Leica Users Group.
See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information


_______________________________________________
Leica Users Group.
See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information

_______________________________________________
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See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information


In reply to: Message from bdcolen at earthlink.net (B. D. Colen) ([Leica] new 1ds mark II)