Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2004/09/20

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Subject: Digital M/Digital Rebel was Re: [Leica] Lost Faith in Leica
From: bdcolen at (B. D. Colen)
Date: Mon Sep 20 11:55:00 2004

First off, Frank, I didn't say that I expected a digital M to be priced
the same as a film M; I expect a digital M to come in somewhere between
$4500 and 7K - which is completely and utterly outrageous.

There is no reason why a digital M should cost more - in fact it should
cost less - than cameras such as the Canon EOS MKII, or the Nikon
DX...In fact, the digital M should cost less as it doesn't have to
provide autofocus, doesn't have to provide the matrix metering, etc.
etc. And at this point the CCDs are, or can be, off the shelf items.
Keep in mind the Epson R-D1 is selling for $2500 - same price as an M7.
While there's no question it isn't built like an M 7, that does beg the
question why an digital M couldn't come in at $3500.

We've all gotten so used to paying caviar prices for Leica equipment
that we sometimes begin to believe that the prices are justified. ;-)

-----Original Message-----
[] On Behalf Of
Frank Dernie
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 2:33 PM
To: Leica Users Group;
Subject: Re: Digital M/Digital Rebel was Re: [Leica] Lost Faith in Leica

I am curious how you think a digital M could be sold for the same price 
as a film M. Not only does all the R&D have to be amortised, but where 
there is currently just a pressure plate there will have to be a (very) 
expensive sensor and all the electronics to make it all work. Dream on!

On 20 Sep, 2004, at 00:03, Scott McLoughlin wrote:

> Roger what B.D. said.  APS sensor at 6MP or so with
> good noise control at higher ISO (IMHO, 800 has to
> be very, very usable) is just fine.  Just let the customers get used 
> to the crop, tell them which lenses just won't work and get something 
> out the door.  Hi megapix count is just a distraction, and full frame 
> ain't gonna happen at anything but a stratospheric price point.
> I think by putting off an RF M for so long, Leica's just raising the 
> bar higher and higher for itself, setting up customers for an eventual

> let down. For digital, the product cycle has to more than one or two 
> designs per decade.
> RD-1 is a first data point in a digital M body. It's too pricey for 
> what it is, but it shows everybody that a company can get such a body 
> out the door without moving heaven and earth or like heroics.
> FWIW, I believe the "price-point" for an APS sensor digi
> M is about what the film bodies cost today: $2,700 USD. Anything more,

> and only the collectors and fondlers will buy them.  At a much higher 
> price than the current M's, Leica faithful shooters (and M newbies) 
> will buy M7's and MP's for shooting film, but go elsewhere for digital

> wants/ needs.
> Again, just IMHO. I guess we'll have to wait 2 years to
> find out :-)
> B. D. Colen wrote:
>> What would be the point? Quite simply the point would be to use them 
>> with whatever crop factor is necessary. I can think of allot worse 
>> things than having the 35 Summilux ASPH morph into what might be the 
>> world's best 50 mm lens. ;-)
>> And don't put any money on the image quality of the digital M being
>> any
>> better than that of the Nikon D70 or the Digital Rebel. It's the
>> that sucks on those two, not the image quality.
>> Oh, P.S.  Leica has not for years been the company we all so fondly 
>> remember as E. Leitz, and some of our memories of that company may be

>> a bit too nostalgia clouded as it is.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:
>> [] On Behalf
>> Of
>> Jonathan Borden
>> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 5:44 PM
>> To: Leica Users Group
>> Subject: Digital M/Digital Rebel was Re: [Leica] Lost Faith in Leica
>> B. D. Colen wrote:
>>> This just in from Mars:
>>> I would buy a digital M - IF it was price-point competitive with
>>> Canon
>>> and Nikon bodies offering the same image quality. In other words, if
>>> Leica produces a digital M for about $3K to 4K, that is comparable 
>>> in image quality, megp count, etc., to a Canon Rebel or Nikon D70, I

>>> wouldn't buy it. If, however, they produce a 10+ megp digital M that

>>> compares to the high end Canons or Nikons, I would indeed buy it.
>> Amen.
>> Of course if they made a digital M that was of the quality of a
>> Digital Rebel then the company formerly known as E. Leitz will have 
>> entirely ceased to exist.
>> My hope is that they are being properly anally compulsive and
>> delaying the digital M until a 10mp+ sensor can be made that works 
>> well with the current crop of wide angle M lenses ... otherwise what 
>> would be the point of a digital M?
>> Jonathan
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>> Leica Users Group.
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Replies: Reply from Frank.Dernie at (Frank Dernie) (Digital M/Digital Rebel was Re: [Leica] Lost Faith in Leica)
Reply from leicagalpal at (Kit McChesney) (Digital M/Digital Rebel was Re: [Leica] Lost Faith in Leica)
In reply to: Message from Frank.Dernie at (Frank Dernie) (Digital M/Digital Rebel was Re: [Leica] Lost Faith in Leica)