Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2004/07/14

[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]

Subject: [Leica] Re: Digital M
From: pdzwig at summaventures.com (Peter Dzwig)
Date: Wed Jul 14 02:50:42 2004
References: <00c201c46908$c790ffc0$6d01a8c0@ccapr.com> <0B51EA15-D505-11D8-975C-0003938C439E@btinternet.com>

Frank,

as a matter of interest - and not totally irrelevant to this discussion - 
was 
the ratio always so? I thought that one of the reasons that contributed to 
the 
impact of rear-engined cars in the US in the 60s was cost.

Peter Dzwig

Frank Dernie wrote:
> BD,
> I am an engineer with a reasonable knowledge of manufacturing processes 
> and costs. The main reason for the high cost of Leica items is that 
> their market is so small. Canon can recover the design and tooling costs 
> of a lens over probably hundreds more units than Leica can.
> To put this in perspective a good quality road car production cost is 
> about $4000, a Champ car (Indy car) about $400,000 and a Formula 1 
> (World Championship) car about $25,000,000. There is a considerable 
> technological difference but the main reasons for these vast difference 
> in costs are the quantity of units over which engineering and tooling 
> costs are amortised.
> Leica lenses are sold in too few numbers to be inexpensive without 
> bankrupting the company. And you have to pay a premium for the brand, 
> like cars :-)
> Frank
> 
> 
> On 13 Jul, 2004, at 19:39, B. D. Colen wrote:
> 
>> There is no question that the M and Rs are extremely well built - the Ms
>> are probably the best built modern cameras. And the lenses have no peers
>> in terms of build quality. However...Is the build quality of an MP five
>> times better than that of a Bessa R2? I don't think so. Much better?
>> Absolutely! Twice as good? Not a doubt. Three times as good? Probably?
>> But five times better? I seriously doubt it - and yet the MP is five
>> times the price. Is the build quality of the old Summilux 50 almost five
>> times better than that of the Cosina Nokton 50 1.5? No chance in hell.
>> Twice as good? Even that's a stretch, but I'll grant that. Image
>> quality? It's pretty much a dead heat. Yet the Summilux cost almost five
>> times as much. Why? The red dot.
>>
>> Is the DigiII 33 % better built, or does it produce 33% better images
>> than the Panasonic version of the same camera? How could it possibly -
>> it's the same damn camera but black and without a red dot.
>>
>> Leica equipment is stellar - but please don't tell me you're not paying
>> a huge premium for the name and red dot. :-)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org
>> [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
>> Peterson Arthur G NSSC
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:13 PM
>> To: 'Leica Users Group'
>> Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: Digital M
>>
>>
>>
>> I do not think the prices of Leica cameras and lenses are not
>> "reasonable." They are built like no others, and the prices are
>> "reasonable" for what you get.  You can buy many Toyotas, or even
>> several very fine Mercedes Benzes, for the price of a single
>> Rolls-Royce.
>>
>> Art Peterson
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Felix Lopez de Maturana [mailto:fmaturana@euskalnet.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 11:51
>> To: lug@leica-users.org
>> Subject: [Leica] Re: Digital M
>>
>>
>>> I don't know that I call fine-tuning lenses innovative, David. Yes,
>>> they produce stunning lenses; absolutely no question about it. But the
>>> reality is that Canon also produces some stunning lenses, and even
>>> Nikon produces a few. ;-) There's nothing really "innovative" about it.
>>
>>
>>> Now, if they found a way to produce stunning lenses at far lower cost,
>>> that would be innovative. ;-)
>>
>>
>> May be the problem of Leica is that, probably due to the size and
>> management of the company, Leica cannot achieve the production of
>> stunning lenses not at a lower cost,  this may be mathematically
>> impossible, but at a reasonable price. A "standard" lens like the new
>> 50mm ASPH is merely out of reason at the price is offered. I can buy two
>> excellent Canon L lenses for this price. Probably a problem of efficacy
>> of the company that will disappear if this situation remains.
>>
>> Felix
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
> 



Replies: Reply from Frank.Dernie at btinternet.com (Frank Dernie) ([Leica] Re: Digital M)
In reply to: Message from bdcolen at earthlink.net (B. D. Colen) ([Leica] Re: Digital M)
Message from Frank.Dernie at btinternet.com (Frank Dernie) ([Leica] Re: Digital M)