Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2003/11/04
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]No, BD, we haven't touched on this subject, as far as I recall. Our previous discussions were about the nature of objectivity and propaganda (of which you accused me). I may have overstated my case - although I vastly prefer Eugene Smith's acknowledged fictions to the unacknowledged ones of, say, the NPPA: my point was that if you need to arrange things to some extent to improve the shot, then you do it. I'm not talking about urging kids to throw stones at soldiers - something I have seen "professional" photojournalists do. Anyone who has worked in India, for instance, will tell you crowd control is an essential, even in people's private homes. And asking people to just make a few more flatbreads so you can be sure you've got the shot, is not a sin, I think. But this was not the original point, which was that in any case, such things are not visible in the picture and therefore do not affect it. - -- Rob http://www.robertappleby.com Mobile: (+39) 348 336 7990 Home: (+39) 0536 63001 All outgoing email scanned by Norton AntiVirus (TM) 2003 Professional Edition. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net> To: <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 4:25 PM Subject: RE: [Leica] re: The Decisive Moment is gone > Well, we've certainly argued about this a great-deal off-list, and I was > sure you were going to respond in this way.... > > No, I don't ask people to move - I move. And I am aware that Eugene > Smith staged things in very major ways - and would be fired from most > of today's news publications for so doing. (If you'll notice I > specifically said the standards of the past 30 years, not all time.) > > And, no, I do not consider someone's staging things to tell "their > story" to be someone doing 'documentary work' - or photojournalism - I > consider them to be someone doing story telling; there's an enormous > difference between the two. > > Yes, many 'real world' events are specifically staged for the benefit of > the media. Of course if the event is staged FOR the media, rather than > at the request of the media, it is a 'real event,' one taking place > because those staging it have changed their tactics to take advantage of > the power of media exposure. If, on the other hand, it is set up by the > media to get an image, or set of images, it is not real. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us > [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us] On Behalf Of Rob > Appleby > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 9:59 AM > To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us > Subject: Re: [Leica] re: The Decisive Moment is gone > > > I think any photojournalist who is honest about what goes on in conflict > areas, for instance, where clashes and riots are often "staged" in > response to the presence of the press, would disagree with you. And > please don't tell me that you've never asked someone to move aside to > improve the light or the picture in any number of ways. Well, maybe you > haven't! But again, what we are talking about here is method, not the > picture. As an example, do you really think Eugene Smith didn't very > largely stage manage the picture of the mourning women in his Spanish > Village essay? Set up lights, ask people to move aside so he could get a > good view of the dead man as well as the mourners? Or many others he > took? > > I know PJ's and documentarists are wedded to the idea of spontaneity and > not intruding (their idea of authenticity), but the real world of taking > pictures is just not like that. Of course, the members of a professional > association whose identity is founded on the projection of such a naive > ethos may well deny it. > > Good photojournalists and documentary photographer take pictures that > tell the story - _their_ story - and how they go about it is irrelevant. > > And of course, all you can ever document is your idea of what their > lives are. > > -- Rob > > http://www.robertappleby.com > Mobile: (+39) 348 336 7990 > Home: (+39) 0536 63001 > > All outgoing email scanned by > Norton AntiVirus (TM) 2003 Professional Edition. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tina Manley" <images@InfoAve.Net> > To: <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us> > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 3:09 PM > Subject: Re: [Leica] re: The Decisive Moment is gone > > > > At 07:17 AM 11/4/2003 +0100, Rob wrote: > > >Well, some people are better at directing than others. And also, > direction > > >need not mean _overspecifying_ - but it could mean saying, why don't > > >you > all > > >go over and sit in that doorway and play with the baby for a bit > > >while I take some pictures. > > > > Then I would not be documenting their lives. I would be documenting > > my idea of what their lives should be. > > > > > > >The fact is we are all actors all the time, and a good photographer > > >knows how to leverage that to get what he wants. > > > > If this discussion were taking place over on the NPPA list, > > photojournalists would be horrified at the suggestion that they direct > > > people in the photos. Good photojournalists and documentary > > photographers do not interfere in any way with what they are > > photographing. I know my very presence altars the situation. That's > > why I try not to bring attention to myself. Eventually, they do go on > > > with their lives as if I were not there. The families that I > > photograph are too busy trying to > make > > a living and care for their children to stop and act for a > > photographer. Spontaneous moments like the father touching the baby's > > hand are exactly that - spontaneous. I don't believe that any > > photograph that has been directed should be called a documentary > > photograph or photojournalism. > > > > Tina > > > > Tina Manley, ASMP > > www.tinamanley.com > > > > > > http://www.pdiphotos.com > > http://www.workbookstock.com > > http://www.newscom.com > > http://www.americanphotojournalist.com > > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, see > > http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, see http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > > -- > To unsubscribe, see http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > - -- To unsubscribe, see http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html