Re: [Leica] Leicavit/Tom's Winder/Aftermarket, etc.

[Henning Wulff <henningw@archiphoto.com>]

At 5:54 PM -0700 3/6/03, Kit McChesney | acmefoto wrote:
>John--
>
>What you are quoting proves my point, which is this:
>
>The Rapidwinder, Tom's product, would never have existed had his own
>Leicavit winders not failed to function, and Leica had not stopped producing
>them, and by logical (if not practical) extension, had Leica not made the
>Leicavit winder in the first place. Tom says as much about the winder
>himself, on his own Web site, that he decided to make a new winder because
>his old ones no longer worked, were impossible to repair, did not fit his
>M4-Ps and M6's, and since Leica no longer made them, whatever remained on
>the market had become "prized collectibles." This is what I meant, and what
>I said, in the post you are quoting, not exactly out of context, but with
>your own "spin" on it.
>
>It is inconceivable that Tom did not take elements and ideas from the
>original in creating his own invention vis-a-vis the original's design, even
>if only to build upon and improve on what wasn't working or what had failed
>in order to improve upon upon it. And yes, I do believe that Tom probably
>benefited from Leica's original design (and therefore their investment in
>the original product) in creating his own. I used the example of an MP
>"knockoff" to illustrate the point.
>
>Production always goes faster when you have a template. And even if Tom
>substantially changed the template upon which he based his winder, which we
>know he did in large part, I'm sure he gleaned a great deal of design and
>engineering information in the process by doing so. That process is
>valuable. For anyone who has ever designed anything, you must know that
>design is an iterative process. One after another after another after
>another, and you refine as you go. Only a simpleton would argue that Tom's
>design was created in a vacuum, was not influenced by anyone else's work, or
>did not represent an iteration, albeit an improved one, upon the original.
>
>I only brought this up in the context of the original topic of discussion,
>which was not how Tom designed the winder, but why the differences in cost
>between the two products.

 From your logic, as the new Leicavit is closer to Tom's winder than 
anything else, Leica benifitted a lot from seeing Tom's winder (which 
they definitely have) and thus should have even lower costs, and 
should also be able to improve on it.

>I'm fully aware that Leica's costs are higher.
>That's a no-brainer. Of course it costs more to run a corporation rather
>than a small shop. And bottom-line, short answer, simple answer, that's
>probably why they cost more. But there is more "why" to the "why" than just
>"Leica's bigger" and "Tom's smaller." There are more costs involved in the
>operation of a company that has hundreds of interchangeable products in its
>line, and all the R&D and production costs associated with that, that are
>all built-in to the price of the Leicavit, than there are in the R&D and
>production costs for one winder product made by a small concern in a corner
>of a totally different country. In that regard, my remark is taken
>"somewhat" out of context.
>
>I am not trying to put down or diminish the value of Tom's products. If you
>would kindly read what I have written in its entirety, instead of pulling
>out parts to buttress your own preconceived idea about why I wrote what I
>did, you would probably understand the intent of my remarks. They were
>posted in large part to counter what I thought were others' overly
>simplistic view of what it takes to design a product and bring to market. If
>you don't agree with my view, you can certainly disagree. But don't try to
>slice and dice what I've said in order to attempt to make it look as though
>I said something I did not say.
>
>Kit
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
>[mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On Behalf Of John
>Collier
>Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 2:35 PM
>To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
>Subject: Re: [Leica] Leicavit, After Market Products, etc.
>
>
>Your original statement --quoted below-- says that Tom A. was only able
>to make a cheaper and better RW because of Leica's initial R&D. I think
>that is not true and I think you also believe that now if I am reading
>you next statement correctly.
>
>John Collier
>
>On Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 02:01 PM, Kit McChesney | acmefoto wrote:
>
>>  I did not say "remanufactured Leicavit." I said "redesigned product."
>>  There
>>  is quite a difference between those two concepts. Let it be known that
>>  I did
>>  not say that Tom's winder was a knockoff of the Leicavit. It is a
>>  product
>>  redesigned on the model of the original Leicavit to perform the
>>  function of
>>  the discontinued original Leicavit, a design that eventually improved
>>  upon
>>  and outshone the original Leicavit.
>
>>>  Earlier you said:
>>>
>>>  With MORE all due respect to everyone, including Tom, there is one
>>>  factor
>>>  that we haven't actually factored into this equation: Tom's products
>>>  would
>>>  not exist in their current configuration (if at all) had Leica not
>>>  invested
>>>  in R&D in the original Leicavit product when it was first introduced.
>>>  That
>>>  fact may or may not be relevant now, but it is true that it would be
>>>  much
>>>  easier for one to take apart an existing product and remanufacture or
>>>  improve upon the original design, than to make a totally new design,
>>>  completely from scratch. There is engineering and design time and
>>>  investment
>>>  in the original product that is absent from the manufacture of the
>>>  redesigned product made by an after-market concern...
>
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