Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2002/05/01
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]I think that this question of your view of "living well" in the U.S. and my view of it comes down to, Karina, is what you and I view as "living well." But then you have spent a few weeks in the U.S., and spoken with several friends, so you obviously must have an accurate view of the country. Just as I obviously have an accurate view of Australia from watching Mad Max movies and a few documentaries on the Discovery channel. ;-) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On Behalf Of Karina Klaas Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:07 AM To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us Subject: Re: [Leica] South Africa - where men were men and blacks were boys - and some people thought things were hunky dory. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net> To: <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:08 PM Subject: RE: [Leica] South Africa - where men were men and blacks were boys - and some people thought things were hunky dory. The only thing I have said regarding the situation in the U.S. is that you are > absolutely, totally, and completely wrong to suggest that "most" Americans > do not live well. I think we will need to disagree >They do. The fact is incontrovertible. Even the friends that I have that in the US that live well only do so because of two reasons 1) They are loaded 2) They work 16 hour days/7 days a week or both. > > As to what you said about having your eyes opened - I did not misinterpret > what you wrote. Go back and re-read it. And I would further point out that > the only people in South Africa who did not know what was going on were > those with their eyes closed. My view of South Africa was not as distorted as my view of the USA - withstanding heavy censorship - I knew that I was being lied to in South Africa - but I did not know I was being conned by the US. >Don't blame your distorted view of reality quite the contrary, I have never been afraid of facing the truth > the fact that you couldn't read "The Female Eunuch" or see "The Man Who Came > To Dinner." I told you this to explain how heavy the censorhip laws were , was not expecting to cry on your shoulder about it... > And don't pat yourself on the back for, at age 20, taking groceries to a home in one of the townships. Pat myself on the back, I hardly think so - these people were related to me by blood, I happen to end up on the white side of the road - my back was busy carrying the heavy load of guilt I carried because my skin was whiter, to fragile to pat. > I am not attempting, by the way, to divert attention from America's problems > by pointing at South Africa's. Maybe the emails you are sending me aren't the ones I am getting... > I raised the issue of South Africa because you stated that it was not until > you moved away from South Africa that it dawned on you what the country was > really like. I knew but not to the extent I know now...due to the freedom to read what I wanted and see what I wanted here in Australia >And I responded to that because I believe that if you could be so blind to the horrors - perpetrated against the majority of >the population by a racist minority - under your very nose, you are not much of a judge of what is or is not reality in a given >society - particularly in one which you have only briefly visited as a tourist. We have already covered this half a dozen times......my initial comments were simply that what I expected and what I found were two different things - what has transpired since that original posting are a numerous offline emails confirming what I observed.....says its all really. > > I am not claiming to be the most perceptive individual in the world, but I > am perceptive enough, well read enough, a politically engaged enough, to be > well aware of the many, many short comings of America - including being > aware of the racism that still pervades American society. My emails were never sent as a "lets pick on the US", but by the responses I have received from you, it would seem that you feel the need to carry forth your flag..almost as if I accused you, BD, of being the solitary cause of homelessness...quite odd . Karina > B. D. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us > [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On Behalf Of > kiklaas@iinet.net.au > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:30 PM > To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us > Subject: Re: [Leica] South Africa - where men were men and blacks were > boys - and some people thought things were hunky dory. > > > BD, you must have missed the pointone of my email where I make reference > to having learnt more about the horrendous situation in South Africa when > I moved to Australia and that I was retrospectively appalled - I am also > not comparing USA with SA - that is a futile excercise - I am making the > point that when one lives in and very close to a situation, it is at > times, hard to see the forest from the trees. > > You must keep in mind that there were VERY HEAVY censorship laws in place > at a time that my own opinions were forming - we did not have TV until > 1974 and even then it was SA GOVT controlled - the very first thing I did > when I arrived in Perth was go to the library and get books out like > Biko and even The Female Eunich (which was banned when I left in 84). > > "Guess whose coming to dinner" was banned, the list is endless. > > At 20 I had the experience of watching my mother weep over a newspaper, > the article was on the twilight children.... > > She had for all those years kept it a secret that she had close relatives > on the "other side" of the colour barrier. I offered (and I was petrified > of the implications of being caught) to drive her to visit them ,which > we did as frequently as we could - armed with a car filled with groceries > because they were living in squatter conditions...in a township..I do not > need to be asked, my experience is raw and real, but my knowledge was > limited, I have made up for that lack of knowledge since.......and believe > that shifting attention to another countries "crime against humanity" is > definitely not a contructive way of improving the situation in your own > backyard, I qualify that further by saying that even if Australia has a > great standard of living for the MAJORITY of the people - it never means > we should ingnore the plight of those less fortunate - THERE IS ALWAYS > ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT, no matter how good - HOW LONG IS A PIECE OF STRING, > BD. > > Karina > > > > > > > > > > Karina actually wrote... > > > > That was what I thought and said about South africa until I moved to > > Australia - I learnt more about the true state of South Africa whilst > > living in Australia and I am retrospectively appalled by how it was for > > those less fortunate..... > > > > ---- > > Did you never read or see anything that wasn't pure racist propagand the > > entire time you lived in South Africa? Weren't you ever the least bit > > curious about who lived in the townships and how they lived? Didn't you > > wonder what the homelands were all about? Didn't you have any curiosity > > about who worked in the mines and what the conditions were like? And did > you > > never read anything written by Nadine Gorier, your Noble Prize winner for > > literature? 'Those less fortunate'...by which you mean the majority of > all > > men, women, and children in South Africa? > > > > And you would, with a straight 'face,' compare the poverty and > inequities in > > today's America with the situation in South Africa? > > > > That's really pretty appalling. > > > > B. D. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us > > [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On Behalf Of > > kiklaas@iinet.net.au > > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 9:42 PM > > To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us > > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: calling on the LUG to do a good deed: leica > > scholarship > > > > > > ...I'm just > > > saying that, in general, things are economically pretty good here. > > > > > > B.D. > > > > > > BD, > > > > That was what I thought and said about South africa until I moved to > > Australia - I learnt more about the true state of South Africa whilst > > living in Australia and I am retrospectively appalled by how it was for > > those less fortunate..... > > > > How many years does it take to reach 4 week paid annual leave in the US? > > > > How many hours do you have to work a day to live well?' > > > > Quantifying standard of living should include quality of life....not the > > clothes you wear and the cars you are able to drive...but also, how well > > the less fortunate than you are taken care of and how much time you get > to > > spend with your family etc... > > > > What do they say - one can win the rat race....but you will always be a > > rat. > > > > By the way, I enjoy this exchange because I learn more about the US so I > > am absorbing everything you write. > > > > It does not take a stupid person to form a perception based > > on the only source they have avalaible to them, until actually visiting > > the country. I was just surprised at how far off the mark that > perception > > was > > > > Someone in LA said there is here is a saying that applies to LA: > > > > A bus comes in at 12 o'clock everynight and picks up all the ugly people > > > > This almost knocked me off my stool. > > > > Karina > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, see http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, see http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, see http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > > -- > To unsubscribe, see http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > - -- To unsubscribe, see http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html - -- To unsubscribe, see http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html