Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2002/05/01

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Subject: RE: [Leica] South Africa - where men were men and blacks were boys - and some people thought things were hunky dory.
From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 11:16:20 -0400

I think that this question of your view of "living well" in the U.S. and my
view of it comes down to, Karina, is what you and I view as "living well."

But then you have spent a few weeks in the U.S., and spoken with several
friends, so you obviously must have an accurate view of the country. Just as
I obviously have an accurate view of Australia from watching Mad Max movies
and a few documentaries on the Discovery channel. ;-)



- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
[mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On Behalf Of Karina
Klaas
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:07 AM
To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
Subject: Re: [Leica] South Africa - where men were men and blacks were
boys - and some people thought things were hunky dory.



- ----- Original Message -----
From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>
To: <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:08 PM
Subject: RE: [Leica] South Africa - where men were men and blacks were
boys - and some people thought things were hunky dory.


The only thing I have said regarding the situation in the U.S. is that you
are
> absolutely, totally, and completely wrong to suggest that "most" Americans
> do not live well.

 I think we will need to disagree

>They do. The fact is incontrovertible.

Even the friends that I have that in the US that live well  only do so
because of two reasons
1)    They are loaded
2)    They work 16 hour days/7 days a week

or both.


>
> As to what you said about having your eyes opened - I did not misinterpret
> what you wrote. Go back and re-read it. And I would further point out that
> the only people in South Africa who did not know what was going on were
> those with their eyes closed.

My view of South Africa was not as distorted as my view of the USA -
withstanding
heavy censorship - I knew that I was being lied to in South Africa - but I
did not know I was being conned by the US.

>Don't blame your distorted view of reality

quite the contrary, I have never been afraid of facing the truth

> the fact that you couldn't read "The Female Eunuch" or see "The Man Who
Came
> To Dinner."

I told you this to explain how heavy the censorhip laws were , was not
expecting to cry on your shoulder about it...

> And don't pat yourself on the back for, at age 20, taking groceries to a
home in one of the townships.

Pat myself on the back, I hardly think so - these people were related to me
by blood, I happen to end up on the white side of the road - my back was
busy carrying the heavy load of guilt I carried because my skin was whiter,
to fragile to pat.

> I am not attempting, by the way, to divert attention from America's
problems
> by pointing at South Africa's.

Maybe the emails you are sending me aren't the ones I am getting...

> I raised the issue of South Africa because you stated that it was not
until
> you moved away from South Africa that it dawned on you what the country
was
> really like.

I knew but not to the extent I know now...due to the freedom to read what I
wanted and see what I wanted here in Australia

>And I responded to that because I believe that if you could be so blind to
the horrors - perpetrated against the majority of >the population by a
racist minority - under your very nose, you are not much of a judge of what
is or is not reality in a given >society - particularly in one which you
have only briefly visited as a tourist.

We have already covered this half a  dozen times......my initial comments
were simply that what I expected and what I found
were two different things - what has transpired since that original posting
are a numerous offline emails confirming what I observed.....says its all
really.
>
> I am not claiming to be the most perceptive individual in the world, but I
> am perceptive enough, well read enough, a politically engaged enough, to
be
> well aware of the many, many short comings of America - including being
> aware of the racism that still pervades American society.

My emails were never sent as a "lets pick on the US", but by the responses I
have received from you, it would seem that you feel the need to carry forth
your flag..almost as if I accused you, BD, of being the solitary cause of
homelessness...quite odd .

Karina


> B. D.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On Behalf Of
> kiklaas@iinet.net.au
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:30 PM
> To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> Subject: Re: [Leica] South Africa - where men were men and blacks were
> boys - and some people thought things were hunky dory.
>
>
> BD, you must have missed the pointone of my email  where I make reference
> to having learnt more about the horrendous situation in South Africa when
> I moved to Australia and that I was retrospectively appalled - I am also
> not comparing USA with SA - that is a futile excercise - I am making the
> point that when one lives in and very close to a situation, it is at
> times, hard to see the forest from the trees.
>
> You must keep in mind that there were VERY HEAVY censorship laws in place
> at a time that my own opinions were forming - we did not have TV until
> 1974 and even then it was SA GOVT controlled - the very first thing I did
> when I arrived in Perth was go to the library and get books out like
> Biko and even The Female Eunich (which was banned when I left in 84).
>
> "Guess whose coming to dinner" was banned, the list is endless.
>
> At 20 I had the experience of watching my mother weep over a newspaper,
> the article was on the twilight children....
>
> She had for all those years kept it a secret that she had close relatives
> on the "other side" of the colour barrier.  I offered (and I was petrified
> of the implications of being caught) to drive her to visit them ,which
> we did as frequently as we could - armed with a car filled with groceries
> because they were living in squatter conditions...in a township..I do not
> need to be asked, my experience is raw and real, but my knowledge was
> limited, I have made up for that lack of knowledge since.......and believe
> that shifting attention to another countries "crime against humanity" is
> definitely not a contructive way of improving the situation in your own
> backyard, I qualify that further by saying that even if Australia has a
> great standard of living for the MAJORITY of the people - it never means
> we should ingnore the plight of those less fortunate - THERE IS ALWAYS
> ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT, no matter how good - HOW LONG IS A PIECE OF STRING,
> BD.
>
> Karina
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Karina actually wrote...
> >
> > That was what I thought and said about South africa until I moved to
> > Australia - I learnt more about the true state of South Africa whilst
> > living in Australia and I am retrospectively appalled by how it was for
> > those less fortunate.....
> >
> > ----
> > Did you never read or see anything that wasn't pure racist propagand the
> > entire time you lived in South Africa? Weren't you ever the least bit
> > curious about who lived in the townships and how they lived? Didn't you
> > wonder what the homelands were all about? Didn't you have any curiosity
> > about who worked in the mines and what the conditions were like? And did
> you
> > never read anything written by Nadine Gorier, your Noble Prize winner
for
> > literature? 'Those less fortunate'...by which you mean the majority of
> all
> > men, women, and children in South Africa?
> >
> > And you would, with a straight 'face,' compare the poverty and
> inequities in
> > today's America with the situation in South Africa?
> >
> > That's really pretty appalling.
> >
> > B. D.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> > [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On Behalf Of
> > kiklaas@iinet.net.au
> > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 9:42 PM
> > To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: calling on the LUG to do a good deed: leica
> > scholarship
> >
> >
> > ...I'm just
> > > saying that, in general, things are economically pretty good here.
> > >
> > > B.D.
> >
> >
> > BD,
> >
> > That was what I thought and said about South africa until I moved to
> > Australia - I learnt more about the true state of South Africa whilst
> > living in Australia and I am retrospectively appalled by how it was for
> > those less fortunate.....
> >
> > How many years does it take to reach 4 week paid annual leave in the US?
> >
> > How many hours do you have to work a day to live well?'
> >
> > Quantifying standard of living should include quality of life....not the
> > clothes you wear and the cars you are able to drive...but also, how well
> > the less fortunate than you are taken care of and how much time you get
> to
> > spend with your family etc...
> >
> > What do they say - one can win the rat race....but you will always be a
> > rat.
> >
> > By the way, I enjoy this exchange because I learn more about the US so I
> > am absorbing everything you write.
> >
> > It does not take a stupid person to form a perception based
> > on the only source they have avalaible to them, until actually visiting
> > the country.  I was just surprised at how far off the mark that
> perception
> > was
> >
> > Someone in LA said there is here is a saying that applies to LA:
> >
> > A bus comes in at 12 o'clock everynight and picks up all the ugly people
> >
> > This almost knocked me off my stool.
> >
> > Karina
> >
> > --
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> >
> > --
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> >
>
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