Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2002/05/01

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Subject: RE: [Leica] South Africa - where men were men and blacks were boys - and some people thought things were hunky dory.
From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 10:08:14 -0400

First off, Karina, I have never suggested that there is not room for
improvement in the U.S. Quite the opposite - I have stated that our
so-called safety net is a joke, and have said several times that the level
of poverty in the U.S. is inexcusable in such a wealthy society. The only
thing I have said regarding the situation in the U.S. is that you are
absolutely, totally, and completely wrong to suggest that "most" Americans
do not live well. They do. The fact is incontrovertible.

As to what you said about having your eyes opened - I did not misinterpret
what you wrote. Go back and re-read it. And I would further point out that
the only people in South Africa who did not know what was going on were
those with their eyes closed. Don't blame your distorted view of reality on
the fact that you couldn't read "The Female Eunuch" or see "The Man Who Came
To Dinner." And don't pat yourself on the back for, at age 20, taking
groceries to a home in one of the townships.

I am not attempting, by the way, to divert attention from America's problems
by pointing at South Africa's. I have in fact, on this list and in numerous
other places, stated that prior to 1965 there was little difference between
the American south and South Africa - and the American northern states
weren't too incredibly far behind.

I raised the issue of South Africa because you stated that it was not until
you moved away from South Africa that it dawned on you what the country was
really like. And I responded to that because I believe that if you could be
so blind to the horrors - perpetrated against the majority of the population
by a racist minority - under your very nose, you are not much of a judge of
what is or is not reality in a given society - particularly in one which you
have only briefly visited as a tourist.

I am not claiming to be the most perceptive individual in the world, but I
am perceptive enough, well read enough, a politically engaged enough, to be
well aware of the many, many short comings of America - including being
aware of the racism that still pervades American society.

B. D.

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
[mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On Behalf Of
kiklaas@iinet.net.au
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:30 PM
To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
Subject: Re: [Leica] South Africa - where men were men and blacks were
boys - and some people thought things were hunky dory.


BD, you must have missed the pointone of my email  where I make reference
to having learnt more about the horrendous situation in South Africa when
I moved to Australia and that I was retrospectively appalled - I am also
not comparing USA with SA - that is a futile excercise - I am making the
point that when one lives in and very close to a situation, it is at
times, hard to see the forest from the trees.

You must keep in mind that there were VERY HEAVY censorship laws in place
at a time that my own opinions were forming - we did not have TV until
1974 and even then it was SA GOVT controlled - the very first thing I did
when I arrived in Perth was go to the library and get books out like
Biko and even The Female Eunich (which was banned when I left in 84).

"Guess whose coming to dinner" was banned, the list is endless.

At 20 I had the experience of watching my mother weep over a newspaper,
the article was on the twilight children....

She had for all those years kept it a secret that she had close relatives
on the "other side" of the colour barrier.  I offered (and I was petrified
of the implications of being caught) to drive her to visit them ,which
we did as frequently as we could - armed with a car filled with groceries
because they were living in squatter conditions...in a township..I do not
need to be asked, my experience is raw and real, but my knowledge was
limited, I have made up for that lack of knowledge since.......and believe
that shifting attention to another countries "crime against humanity" is
definitely not a contructive way of improving the situation in your own
backyard, I qualify that further by saying that even if Australia has a
great standard of living for the MAJORITY of the people - it never means
we should ingnore the plight of those less fortunate - THERE IS ALWAYS
ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT, no matter how good - HOW LONG IS A PIECE OF STRING,
BD.

Karina








> Karina actually wrote...
>
> That was what I thought and said about South africa until I moved to
> Australia - I learnt more about the true state of South Africa whilst
> living in Australia and I am retrospectively appalled by how it was for
> those less fortunate.....
>
> ----
> Did you never read or see anything that wasn't pure racist propagand the
> entire time you lived in South Africa? Weren't you ever the least bit
> curious about who lived in the townships and how they lived? Didn't you
> wonder what the homelands were all about? Didn't you have any curiosity
> about who worked in the mines and what the conditions were like? And did
you
> never read anything written by Nadine Gorier, your Noble Prize winner for
> literature? 'Those less fortunate'...by which you mean the majority of
all
> men, women, and children in South Africa?
>
> And you would, with a straight 'face,' compare the poverty and
inequities in
> today's America with the situation in South Africa?
>
> That's really pretty appalling.
>
> B. D.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On Behalf Of
> kiklaas@iinet.net.au
> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 9:42 PM
> To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: calling on the LUG to do a good deed: leica
> scholarship
>
>
> ...I'm just
> > saying that, in general, things are economically pretty good here.
> >
> > B.D.
>
>
> BD,
>
> That was what I thought and said about South africa until I moved to
> Australia - I learnt more about the true state of South Africa whilst
> living in Australia and I am retrospectively appalled by how it was for
> those less fortunate.....
>
> How many years does it take to reach 4 week paid annual leave in the US?
>
> How many hours do you have to work a day to live well?'
>
> Quantifying standard of living should include quality of life....not the
> clothes you wear and the cars you are able to drive...but also, how well
> the less fortunate than you are taken care of and how much time you get
to
> spend with your family etc...
>
> What do they say - one can win the rat race....but you will always be a
> rat.
>
> By the way, I enjoy this exchange because I learn more about the US so I
> am absorbing everything you write.
>
> It does not take a stupid person to form a perception based
> on the only source they have avalaible to them, until actually visiting
> the country.  I was just surprised at how far off the mark that
perception
> was
>
> Someone in LA said there is here is a saying that applies to LA:
>
> A bus comes in at 12 o'clock everynight and picks up all the ugly people
>
> This almost knocked me off my stool.
>
> Karina
>
> --
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>
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Replies: Reply from "Karina Klaas" <shutterbug@iinet.net.au> (Re: [Leica] South Africa - where men were men and blacks were boys - and some people thought things were hunky dory.)
Reply from "Michael Gardner" <mlgardner99@earthlink.net> (Re: [Leica] South Africa - Enough already!)