Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2002/01/30

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Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: Taking Photos in Starbucks
From: Bryan Caldwell <bcaldwell51@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 06:37:56 -0800

On 1/30/02 5:18 AM, "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> 
>>> Hi Bryan,
>>> 
>>>> prohibit [taking pictures in private places]
>>> 
>>> What can they do to prohibit me?  What exactly does prohibit
>> mean?  Can they
>>> physically take my camera from me or even remove the film and
>> keep it, or
>>> even the camera?  Can they only ask me to not do it?  What,
>> exactly CAN they
>>> do to prohibit me?
>>> 
>>> Austin
> 
> Hi Bryan,
> 
>> The
>> situation is really no different than if someone came onto your front lawn
>> and began exercising their 'right' to speak and ignored your requests to
>> stop.
> 
> I already understand all that...and really wasn't interested in the trespass
> issue...
> 
>> As for taking a photographer's film, that is unlikely, although it's not
>> inconceivable that some sort of civil action could lead to an injunction
>> preventing its use - and certainly preventing its use for any kind of
>> profit.
> 
> I meant prohibit you, as what physically can they do to you while you are in
> the store to prohibit you from taking pictures?  Obviously, they can stand
> in front of you...but what about touching you, or the camera?
> 
> Sorry, I thought this was a rather simple question...
> 
> Austin
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, see http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html


Austin,

I thought it was a rather simple answer.

The owner of a Starbucks is no different than any other owner of property
when it comes to someone on their property without their permission. I can't
be much simpler than that.

They can do exactly the same things that you could do if someone marched
onto your front lawn and began taking pictures without your permission and
refused to stop or leave. Do you have the right to take their camera/film? I
don't think so.

I don't know what you're looking for - but you're not going to hear from me
that anyone (non-law enforcement) has the right to take cameras/film on the
spot.

If a patron in a retail establishment is breaking the law (i.e.,
trespassing, interfering with customers, violating a previous court order to
stay away, etc.) most jurisdictions have some sort of statute based on the
common-law notion of "shopkeeper's privilege" which allows the owner to use
'reasonable' force to detain an individual while the police are summoned.
This is how most shoplifters are apprehended. This would, of course, only
apply when picture-taking rose to a violation of the law because of one of
the circumstances I've mentioned above. What is "reasonable" force? This is
something a jury might be called upon to decide should the detainee decide
to sue. This concept is really not much different than that of making a
"citizen's arrest."

Why would you detain someone who was trespassing? So that they could be
arrested and prosecuted.

Things change a bit if our fictional Starbucks photographer has previously
been successfully prosecuted for trespassing at the same location. As part
of a successful prosecution, he or she would probably have been probably
ordered by the court to stay away and placed on, at least, informal
probation (again, there can be slight differences from jurisdiction to
jurisdiction). Then, a subsequent incident is no longer just trespassing, it
becomes disobedience of a court order and a violation of probation.
Trespassing is crime for which the penalties are initially rather light, but
can escalate rather quickly upon subsequent offenses.

Again, as simple as I can make it. The owner of a Starbucks is no different
- - has no greater or fewer rights - than any other property owner.

Bryan

- --
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Replies: Reply from S Dimitrov <sld@earthlink.net> (Re: [Leica] Re: Taking Photos in Starbucks)