Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2001/01/25

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Subject: [Leica] Shudder-bug, long & <OT>, you probably don't care.
From: Jim Brick <jim_brick@agilent.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:09:07 -0800

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Now I know no one now cares about all of this. Especially LUG folks. So if you
don't want to read my ramblings, push delete now.

I have been a subscriber to Shutterbug since the very beginning. I still have
the first year's issues. Newspaper, really yellow now. And have never let my
subscription lapse. I have gained an enormous amount of good information from
the publication. Not in the articles. From the Ads and other misc. info.

My Hasselblad rep told me, at least a year ago, that Zeiss was going to stop
making Hasselblad projectors and if I wanted one, I should get one now. He also
said that I should look for a used projector with a 150mm lens because 150mm
projector lenses were completely un-available. And none were going to be made.
I looked through Shutterbug each month and over a period of a few months, found
two, like new, projectors with 150mm lenses (and other lenses) for about 60% of
new net price. I snagged them.

Several years ago, when Schneider's APO Symmar HM large format lenses were
fairly new, I wanted a 120mm APO Symmar HM and hunted for a used lens. I was
laughed at by everyone I called. "Used... you've got to be kidding!" But there
it was, in Shutterbug, a few months later. LN for $900. I have a 48"x60"
landscape print made from a Velvia transparency photographed with this lens
that is mind bogglingly sharp.

I have read many of Bob Shell's editorials and have always thought that he was
extremely knowledgeable about the photographic industry. I know he is a
genuinely nice guy and very well respected.

Actually, my whole point about the Shutterbug article on CB lenses was that Bob
offered nothing past "they are not T* coated lenses." It would have been nice
to see, in print, something akin to what Bob wrote below. Especially since I
was holding a CB lens dutifully stamped  T* in my right hand and the Shutterbug
article in my left hand.

I queried my local Hasselblad rep (who I know personally quite well and has
always given me advanced inside information about what is going on at
Hasselblad and told me what is good as well as what is not as good) who said
the following. "The CB lenses are a bargain set of lenses, some have simpler,
cheaper to manufacture optical designs, and none have the ability to disengage
the shutter for use on an F camera. But the T* coating is a T* coating because
if Hasselblad sold "new" lenses that were more prone to flare than other and
older Hasselblad lenses, they would never hear the last of it. Most people
never make prints larger than 16x20 (16x16) and the optical performance of the
CB lenses would be equal to all other lenses in this domain. So for the 500
series user, the CB lenses are a bargain, and for all but the most
excruciatingly exacting applications, are equal to all other equivalent focal
length lenses."

I understand Bob's position since he was told, what he was told, by someone
from Zeiss. I personally would have to believe that as well, depending upon who
the Zeiss person was, of course. I know that Bob received an enormous amount of
flak from that article and he is doing the correct thing - sticking by what he
was told. But a more full "explanation" should have been "printed" since
visually seeing  T*  engraved on a lens, and having no "real" explanation to a
conflicting article, is a powerful influence and tends to give rise to
suspicions.

So what is the truth? Actually no one probably cares. But I like dilemmas
solved. And until they are, there's an "umbrella of doubt" over the entire
debacle.

Thanks for your time and bandwidth,

Jim (who has no CB lenses) Brick


At 10:24 PM 1/24/01 -0500, Maciver2@aol.com wrote:
>With respect to Jim Brick's posting re Bob Shell, I thought you might like to 
>read Bob's response, since he's not on this list:
>
>"
>I'm not on the LUG and don't have time for more lists.  The story as he
>tells
>it is correct.  I was told these lenses had a "simplified" coating which was
>not the same as the T* used on the other lenses.  I have witnesses to the
>statement being made by a Zeiss spokesman.  He did say it, and I quoted it
>in good faith.  If he was wrong, then he should admit it, but he stands by
>his statement.  Since I have not been to the factory to independently verify
>what the coating is, I have bowed out of this one.
>
>Bob  "

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<html>
Now I know no one now cares about all of this. Especially LUG folks. So
if you don't want to read my ramblings, push delete now.<br>
<br>
I have been a subscriber to Shutterbug since the very beginning. I still
have the first year's issues. Newspaper, really yellow now. And have
never let my subscription lapse. I have gained an enormous amount of good
information from the publication. Not in the articles. From the Ads and
other misc. info.<br>
<br>
My Hasselblad rep told me, at least a year ago, that Zeiss was going to
stop making Hasselblad projectors and if I wanted one, I should get one
now. He also said that I should look for a used projector with a 150mm
lens because 150mm projector lenses were completely un-available. And
none were going to be made. I looked through Shutterbug each month and
over a period of a few months, found two, like new, projectors with 150mm
lenses (and other lenses) for about 60% of new net price. I snagged
them.<br>
<br>
Several years ago, when Schneider's APO Symmar HM large format lenses
were fairly new, I wanted a 120mm APO Symmar HM and hunted for a used
lens. I was laughed at by everyone I called. &quot;Used... you've got to
be kidding!&quot; But there it was, in Shutterbug, a few months later. LN
for $900. I have a 48&quot;x60&quot; landscape print made from a Velvia
transparency photographed with this lens that is mind bogglingly
sharp.<br>
<br>
I have read many of Bob Shell's editorials and have always thought that
he was extremely knowledgeable about the photographic industry. I know he
is a genuinely nice guy and very well respected.<br>
<br>
Actually, my whole point about the Shutterbug article on CB lenses was
that Bob offered nothing past &quot;they are not T* coated lenses.&quot;
It would have been nice to see, in print, something akin to what Bob
wrote below. Especially since I was holding a CB lens dutifully
stamped&nbsp; <font color="#FF0000">T*</font> in my right hand and the
Shutterbug article in my left hand.<br>
<br>
I queried my local Hasselblad rep (who I know personally quite well and
has always given me advanced inside information about what is going on at
Hasselblad and told me what is good as well as what is not as good) who
said the following. &quot;The CB lenses are a bargain set of lenses, some
have simpler, cheaper to manufacture optical designs, and none have the
ability to disengage the shutter for use on an F camera. But the T*
coating is a T* coating because if Hasselblad sold &quot;new&quot; lenses
that were more prone to flare than other and older Hasselblad lenses,
they would never hear the last of it. Most people never make prints
larger than 16x20 (16x16) and the optical performance of the CB lenses
would be equal to all other lenses in this domain. So for the 500 series
user, the CB lenses are a bargain, and for all but the most
excruciatingly exacting applications, are equal to all other equivalent
focal length lenses.&quot;<br>
<br>
I understand Bob's position since he was told, what he was told, by
someone from Zeiss. I personally would have to believe that as well,
depending upon who the Zeiss person was, of course. I know that Bob
received an enormous amount of flak from that article and he is doing the
correct thing - sticking by what he was told. But a more full
&quot;explanation&quot; should have been &quot;printed&quot; since
visually seeing&nbsp; <font color="#FF0000">T*</font>&nbsp; engraved on a
lens, and having no &quot;real&quot; explanation to a conflicting
article, is a powerful influence and tends to give rise to
suspicions.<br>
<br>
So what is the truth? Actually no one probably cares. But I like dilemmas
solved. And until they are, there's an &quot;umbrella of doubt&quot; over
the entire debacle.<br>
<br>
Thanks for your time and bandwidth,<br>
<br>
Jim (who has no CB lenses) Brick<br>
<br>
<br>
At 10:24 PM 1/24/01 -0500, Maciver2@aol.com wrote:<br>
&gt;With respect to Jim Brick's posting re Bob Shell, I thought you might
like to <br>
&gt;read Bob's response, since he's not on this list:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&quot;<br>
&gt;I'm not on the LUG and don't have time for more lists.&nbsp; The
story as he<br>
&gt;tells<br>
&gt;it is correct.&nbsp; I was told these lenses had a
&quot;simplified&quot; coating which was<br>
&gt;not the same as the T* used on the other lenses.&nbsp; I have
witnesses to the<br>
&gt;statement being made by a Zeiss spokesman.&nbsp; He did say it, and I
quoted it<br>
&gt;in good faith.&nbsp; If he was wrong, then he should admit it, but he
stands by<br>
&gt;his statement.&nbsp; Since I have not been to the factory to
independently verify<br>
&gt;what the coating is, I have bowed out of this one.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Bob&nbsp; &quot;<br>
</html>

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