Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 1999/05/10

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Subject: Re: [Leica] RE: Kodachrome Valley
From: "Dan Post" <dwpost@email.msn.com>
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:53:54 -0400

Actually- all film has silver and is in a sense, B&W. What they have
attached to the silver halide is a dye complex. C-41 and E-6 processes use
developers that  have the ability to 'couple' the colorless dye into a
colored analine type, insoluble dye. The silver being fixed, bleached and
washed out.
These silver halide/dye complex molecules are really large, and there is a
need for a relatively thick emulsion, or at least in the older films, before
tabulature type grain ( T-grain technology). Kodachrome has/had the dye
substrate attached to the silver halide, but the couplers were not in the
emulsion but added by a diffusion process when the film was developed. It
was a long and costly process in days of yore, requiring a full time chemist
to monitor everything. Since the couplers were not in the emulsion, it was
thinner and the molecules of Silver halide and dye were smaller and closer
together- smaller apparent grain.
I have no doubt that with the advent of T-grain films, especially slide
films, will see thinner emulsions and smaller apparent grain rivalling
Kodachrome. It's just a matter of time.
Interestingly enough, the developing agent in Rodinol, paraminophenol, is a
'coupling' developer. When you do Tri-X, the blue color in the spent
developer is the yellow light absorbing dye that has been coupled and washed
from the film- p-aminophenol couples to anilone dyes and they are water
soluble! Try developing an exposed strip of, say Fujicolor, in Rodinal, then
wash the film in a tray- they dye image gradually washes away! (Over expose
it so the images doesn't wAsh out in the stop and fix bath!)
Dan
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Brick <jimbrick@photoaccess.com>
To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>
Date: Monday, May 10, 1999 5:28 PM
Subject: [Leica] RE: Kodachrome Valley


>If my feeble 5th sense serves me correctly...
>
>The last time I checked, Kodachrome was still a B&W film, with real silver
>grain, and the color added in the processing. The result is a film with
>"real" silver grain.
>
>Provia is an E6 film, where the color is within the film emulsion.
>Processing completely strips away all silver, it having been replaced with
>color globules.
>
>So in reality, Kodachrome will have grain and Provia will have globs. I'm
>not sure that they can be scientifically compared.
>
>Jim GO5 Brick
>
>>DonjR43198@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>Has anyone had an opportunity to test the new Fuji Provia Pro RDP III?  It
>>was reported to have even smaller grain than Kodachrome 25.
>
>At 04:39 PM 5/10/99 -0400, Alistair wrote:
>>Here we go again, I'll try and save us all some time and effort.
>>
>>Well if the grain's not small enough it's probably because the troglodyte
>>gnome who polishes the Kodachrome  grain got sick recently and his
>>replacement was not up to snuff.
>>
>>Big Yellow will therefore go bankrupt.
>>
>>Next.
>>
>