Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 1998/08/23
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]- --============_-1308258681==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Recently a long quote by Jim Williams (Contax G fame) hs been circulated on the LUG. I at first resisted temptation to react. Still some comment is appropriate I assume. First of all his text is full of statements, not a single one prooved or explained. He is also demagogially clever ("superb" Zeiss lenses versus "computer designed" Summicrons). It is however not my goal to refute Mr Williams. He seems convinced of his opinion and so be it. At stake is the reputation of Leica or its "reputational myth-making". And the large group of Leica users who "because of their own fixed beliefs in Leica superiority -- certainly weren't about to disabuse the masses of their illusions". So are leica lenses superb or just front runners or me-too products. Were leica lenses unsurpassed in the past or not? From my postings (and test result) you will know that I am not a person to give super high marks to older Leica lensgenerations. But I am also not inclined to give older Zeiss or Japanese very high marks. The Planar 2/50 for the Contarex, once described as of unsurpassable optical quality, is very good but not state of the art anymore. And so is the seven element Summicron. Many Leica lenses are excellent and often the number one for its fovcal length and specs. But leica also had and has lesser designs, quite apt for its task, but not state of the art: the 1,4/35 Summilux and the Summicron 2/90. The problem with all these generalisations is this: they assume one fixed evaluation standard along which all lenses can be measured and given a simple merit figure (be it a number, a word or a range of stars). This is quite wrong and even more importantly it misrepresents the reality. You still owe me the Summilux-R report. Why? I have all bench results, hundreds of comparison transparancies and many MTF graphs. So it should be easy to make a comparison and a clear ranking? Ok, let us start: I compared the Summicron-M and R and the Summilux-R (old) and new and the Summilux-M. That gives a bit body to an evaluation and it brings out small differences, which may not be important for a star ranking, but are important for real life shooting. Well overall the Summicron-M is slightly ahead of its R-sibling. At full aperture the M has a bit more contrast and its ability to record extremely fine details with outstanding clarity is greater. Also the performance of the M extends over a larger image circle than does the R, which is a bit weaker in the corners. The Summilux-R (old) is of low contrast and the recording of fine detail in the center is very good, but drops off fairly quick (after an image circle of 6mm radius). Stopping down the quality improves slowly until at f/5,6 to f8,0 where we can find excellent quality. The new Summilux-R has a high contrast at full aperture with fine to very fine detail excellently rendered over the whole image field. Stopping down one stop brings image quality better than its predecessor at f/4,0 and on stopping down image quality rapidly improves to a new optimum level at f/5,6. The Summilux-M is about equal to the new R in the center (6mm radius) but stays behind in the outer regions. Stopping down improves the contrast and the clear rendering of very fine detail. At f/5,6 we have excellent quality. The Summicron-M at the same aperture could be qualified as of exceedingly high imagery. Now I do hope that in the context of these descriptions designations like "very fine details" and "outstanding clarity" make sense and can be related to photographic practise and expectations of image quality. To be brave and reckless for once I would rank the Planar 1.4/50 for the Contax RTS as above the old Summilux-R but below the new one. Now how should we rank these five lenses based on the text above? Summicron-M is still the best, followed at a little distance by the Summicron-R, which is closely followed by the Summilux-R new. This lens in some important areas inches ahead of the Summilux-M. The Summilux-R old is a bit lagging in all areas and outdistanced by the new Summilux-R. This would be Ok as far as my *current* set of evaluation criteria will allow. If you put different weightings to the several components of image quality (as defined by me, mind you) the ranking and the evaluation could be different. The clear and contrasty rendition of very fine detail in the zonal region at the wider apertures is for me a very important componant as it will define the capacity of big enlargements from negatives (or trannies) taken in adverse luminance conditions. Most testers I know of (yes also CdI) are looking for different aspects of image quality. The overall ranking might or might not be the same. But a simple star rating system (the Summicron-M gets 5 stars from CDI, the Summicron-R gets 4 and the Summilux-M gets 3) does not give insight into the finer points of the differences in optical performance. It will also not tell you how the 5 or 4 or 3 stars have been put together. If we now would try to compare lenses from several reputable companies over long ranges of lenses and over several decades with different and often non-reproducable test paramaters from many different persons who also change their evaluation criteria (or even more worse did not change their criteria) we would be insane. At least I would be insane. Why then did I start with telling you that I have not yet made my final report. Because I do conduct tests at several distances ( 1 meter, 3 meters, 5 meters and 10 meters or infinity). It is quite logical that at 1 meter the capacity of rendering fine details is different from the 10 meter distance if you are looking for the *same fine details*!!. At one meter we would need let us say 10 lp/mm of good contrast to record these details. At 5 meter we need 50lp/mm to record the same details with the same contrast and clarity. As 50lp/mm represent unbelievably fine details that can not be seen in a transparancy projected to a 4 meter image and viewed at close range we must carefully reflect how to evaluate performence differences at this demanding level of image quality. Now the 5 lenses mentioned above have different characteristics in this respect and I just need time and some study to phrase my conclusions. Erwin - --============_-1308258681==_ma============ Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Recently a long quote by Jim Williams (Contax G fame) hs been circulated on the LUG. I at first resisted temptation to react. Still some comment is appropriate I assume. First of all his text is full of statements, not a single one prooved or explained. He is also demagogially clever ("superb" Zeiss lenses versus "computer designed" Summicrons). It is however not my goal to refute Mr Williams. He seems convinced of his opinion and so be it. At stake is the reputation of Leica or its "reputational myth-making". And the large group of Leica users who "because of their own fixed beliefs in Leica superiority -- certainly weren't about to disabuse the masses of their illusions". So are leica lenses superb or just front runners or me-too products. Were leica lenses unsurpassed in the past or not? From my postings (and test result) you will know that I am not a person to give super high marks to older Leica lensgenerations. But I am also not inclined to give older Zeiss or Japanese very high marks. The Planar 2/50 for the Contarex, once described as of unsurpassable optical quality, is very good but not state of the art anymore. And so is the seven element Summicron. Many Leica lenses are excellent and often the number one for its fovcal length and specs. But leica also had and has lesser designs, quite apt for its task, but not state of the art: the 1,4/35 Summilux and the Summicron 2/90. The problem with all these generalisations is this: they assume one fixed evaluation standard along which all lenses can be measured and given a simple merit figure (be it a number, a word or a range of stars). This is quite wrong and even more importantly it misrepresents the reality. You still owe me the Summilux-R report. Why? I have all bench results, hundreds of comparison transparancies and many MTF graphs. So it should be easy to make a comparison and a clear ranking? Ok, let us start: I compared the Summicron-M and R and the Summilux-R (old) and new and the Summilux-M. That gives a bit body to an evaluation and it brings out small differences, which may not be important for a star ranking, but are important for real life shooting. Well overall the Summicron-M is slightly ahead of its R-sibling. At full aperture the M has a bit more contrast and its ability to record extremely fine details with outstanding clarity is greater. Also the performance of the M extends over a larger image circle than does the R, which is a bit weaker in the corners. The Summilux-R (old) is of low contrast and the recording of fine detail in the center is very good, but drops off fairly quick (after an image circle of 6mm radius). Stopping down the quality improves slowly until at f/5,6 to f8,0 where we can find excellent quality. The new Summilux-R has a high contrast at full aperture with fine to very fine detail excellently rendered over the whole image field. Stopping down one stop brings image quality better than its predecessor at f/4,0 and on stopping down image quality rapidly improves to a new optimum level at f/5,6. The Summilux-M is about equal to the new R in the center (6mm radius) but stays behind in the outer regions. Stopping down improves the contrast and the clear rendering of very fine detail. At f/5,6 we have excellent quality. The Summicron-M at the same aperture could be qualified as of exceedingly high imagery. Now I do hope that in the context of these descriptions designations like "very fine details" and "outstanding clarity" make sense and can be related to photographic practise and expectations of image quality. To be brave and reckless for once I would rank the Planar 1.4/50 for the Contax RTS as above the old Summilux-R but below the new one. Now how should we rank these five lenses based on the text above? Summicron-M is still the best, followed at a little distance by the Summicron-R, which is closely followed by the Summilux-R new. This lens in some important areas inches ahead of the Summilux-M. The Summilux-R old is a bit lagging in all areas and outdistanced by the new Summilux-R. This would be Ok as far as my *current* set of evaluation criteria will allow. If you put different weightings to the several components of image quality (as defined by me, mind you) the ranking and the evaluation could be different. The clear and contrasty rendition of very fine detail in the zonal region at the wider apertures is for me a very important componant as it will define the capacity of big enlargements from negatives (or trannies) taken in adverse luminance conditions. Most testers I know of (yes also CdI) are looking for different aspects of image quality. The overall ranking might or might not be the same. But a simple star rating system (the Summicron-M gets 5 stars from CDI, the Summicron-R gets 4 and the Summilux-M gets 3) does not give insight into the finer points of the differences in optical performance. It will also not tell you how the 5 or 4 or 3 stars have been put together. If we now would try to compare lenses from several reputable companies over long ranges of lenses and over several decades with different and often non-reproducable test paramaters from many different persons who also change their evaluation criteria (or even more worse did not change their criteria) we would be insane. At least I would be insane. Why then did I start with telling you that I have not yet made my final report. Because I do conduct tests at several distances ( 1 meter, 3 meters, 5 meters and 10 meters or infinity). It is quite logical that at 1 meter the capacity of rendering fine details is different from the 10 meter distance if you are looking for the *same fine details*!!. At one meter we would need let us say 10 lp/mm of good contrast to record these details. At 5 meter we need 50lp/mm to record the same details with the same contrast and clarity. As 50lp/mm represent unbelievably fine details that can not be seen in a transparancy projected to a 4 meter image and viewed at close range we must carefully reflect how to evaluate performence differences at this demanding level of image quality. Now the 5 lenses mentioned above have different characteristics in this respect and I just need time and some study to phrase my conclusions. Erwin - --============_-1308258681==_ma============--