Re: M use

["Lucien_vD@compuserve.com" <Lucien_vD@compuserve.com>]

Oddmund wrote:

>Alors Lucien, on devient religieux?...

A propos de Leica ? Je vais y reflechir...

>I don't understand why you start talking about F5, R8, comparing lenses,=

>apples and oranges. I was talking about the Leica M6 which is roughly a =
M3
>from the fifties, with the addition of a simple light meter. Not really =
a
>huge effort in R&D... =


R&D in lenses: 24/2,8 ASPH., 35/2 ASPH., 35/1,4 ASPH. 70-180/2,8 etc..

>You pay a hell of a lot for the name, for the red logo. That's all!  =


I had always hated the Red Logo on cameras. I always hide it.

>You say that Leica is currently spending a lot of money in their R&D. Al=
l
>big camera and lens producers do the same. We are living in a world of
>"free enterprise". Only the fittest will survive... Leica make some good=

>lenses, but there are several out there... A good lens is a good lens, n=
o
>matter which brand it is.     =


Yes and no. Leica is now surviving because they are making lenses (or
camera :M6)
that you don't find in other systems.

>You praise the collectors, pretending that without them, Leica would
>probably not be alive. I don't think the esoteric Leicas and limited
>series, and the fact that some fortunate collectors buy them, will help
>Leica Camera to survive on a long term basis.

Maybe not but it was helpful.

>These products will certainly
>bring in some cash flow. But if Leica Camera doesn't introduce new,
>interesting, trend setting products which is better, or at least as good=

as
>the concurrence, they are bound to die. Today there seems to be some
>weaknesses in the strategic thinking at the Leica headquarter. The
>marketing department seems to be very powerful. Too powerful. Some
products
>are obviously launched in a hurry, not being "finished" products.

I have the opposite feeling and I'm not the only one.
Sinds 1 year it seems that Leica take much more care of what customer
wants.

>I am fond of high end point & shoot cameras, as you know. Leica introduc=
ed
>a bastard of a Minilux some time ago. A good lens mounted on a bulky and=

>clumsy camera, with a useless viewfinder. A miserable product which has
>nothing to do with that Leica feel and look we appreciate so much. A bad=

>copy of Contax and Nikon, that is what it was! Launched in a hurry,
because
>the marketing department found out that it was an interesting niche. =


I don't know the Minilux very well, but you are the only person that I kn=
ow
who still really use his small titanium Contax. The Titanium small camera=
s
"niche" (Minilux, Contax TVS, Nikon,Minolta, Ricoh 35TI etc.; seem to be
made for those guys
who are never happy with a camera and change every 2 months (making other=
s
happy
on the second hand market), maybe it is not a rule but here in Brussels
thats what
I observe sinds more or less 5 years. (apples and oranges again ?)

>I wont mention the R8, as I don't know the camera, and also because I am=

>not really interested in SLR's. But from the few messages I have seen
here,
>there may be similar problems. =


I hope you are wrong..Time will tell.

>You are comparing a FM/FM2 with a M3... It doesn't make much sense for m=
e,
>but I understand your point. The M's is a complicated mechanical system =
of
>levers, pivots, prisms and mirrors which can go out of adjustment far mo=
re
>easily than the simpler FM/FM2. I am using an old Nikon FM when I have t=
o,
>and it works fine. I have had no problem, or repair on it during the 20
>years I have been using it. On the contrary, my M's... In France, and in=

>all other countries I have visited, a used FM/FM2 outfit is much cheaper=

>than an equivalent Leica M equipment. I think nobody really doubts about=

that.

I don't compare the M3 with the FM2, I only want to say that they are bot=
h
the
kind of camera that "young photographers" want to have, and that a "user"=

M3
and a (nice) second hand FM2 (not the FM) cost almost the same.(maybe onl=
y
here
in Brussels)
For the lenses I agree with you.

>I think you are mixing a lot of things here

I agree with that.

>, and that you reverse the
>order. I don't find any argument against my main statement: "Leica Camer=
a
>are squeezing the juice out of a 50 years old lemon, riding upon a
legend."

I don't agree, a camera of the quality of the M6, made at 10.000 ex/ year=

can't be cheaper, and as I can see in the LUG, people don't want them to
change it.

>Leica is too expensive for what it is, including CLA, accessories, spare=

>parts etc. If Leica Camera thinks it is possible to continue making
>"classic cameras for the rich", hallelujah.

Next time explain me your point of view about ZENIT, ZORKI,  etc..
(those apples and oranges again ..!)


>I think they misunderstand the
>social and economical reality. Sales turnover of expensive, classic, hig=
h
>end products is generally decreasing today.

I don't think so. (Do you really care about social and economical reality=

??)
(ZENIT, ZORKI again..no sorry: apples and oranges again ..)

>If they want to make expensive,
>high end cameras for professionals, there must be a reasonable balance
>between efficiency (specifications), quality and price.

I don't agree with you for Leica M but I don't think that all those
Titanium cameras
(Contax, Nikon, Minolta or Leica Minilux) offer a good quality and price
balance =

at all.

>The Leica M6 is certainly unique, a good camera, but not a great one. I
>like my M4, sure. But now I am waiting for them to come out with a
>synthesis of a small (about TVS size and form), modern rangefinder camer=
a
>with a manual f/2.8 24-50mm zoom lens, and why not fix lenses from 15mm
>(Hologon) up to 90mm. With AF and AE, matrix and spot metering (-0.4EV u=
p
>to 17EV), with a real Leica viewfinder, and with manual overrides (manua=
l
>focus/metering). =


Impossible.(what did you say about reality etc.. ??)

>If they lose this battle, and introduce another bastard
>(M5, Minilux...), half finished, marketing product, I will hate them
>forever, and I will certainly not cry if they disappear. =


>Once again I will repeat to myself and to others: "Unfortunately the
>*perfect* camera doesn't exist." =


The perfect camera (different for each of us) is the camera that we know =
so
well,
that we don't have to think about when making photography.

For me it is the M6 (after months of use I have to confess) and I hope,
but for other photography, the R8. We will see.
But I am sure that in both systems, the lenses are those that I can use
the more easily and that I trust the most.

It is always a pleasure to discuss apples and oranges with you, Oddmund.
I like it very much.
The reason we are using a Leica , our political sensibility
or concerns are maybe different, our life certainly are but those
discussion are
opening my mind.
And I don't take all this to seriously.

Bon week-end.

Lucien
BELGIUM