[Leica] Was Need printing paper advice, Now NUDITY TINA.

Mon May 7 16:33:04 PDT 2018

Ugh.. Araki must be one of the creepiest photographers who somehow gained
fame among even creepier audience. I've often found his images repulsive.

Art exists to depict and cope with reality. As a pianist, I often work with
materials that deal with unspeakable darkness and suffering, but I find
materials that glorify enslavement or oppression of other human beings
repulsive.

In intimate arts, such as those dealing with nudity or with the inner-most,
intimate details of one's life, there is no room for exploitations.
Exploitative materials are simply that: cheap and utterly disposable
pornography.

I remember an old-time former member here, Jim Brick, vehemently defending
nude photographs of children and adolescents by Jock Sturges. While I am
not always comfortable with his commercial work, primarily distorted
depiction of nearly-starving adolescent girls outside their natural
habitat, I have found his more personal, intimate work beautiful. Yes,
there is much nudity but it was clearly not exploitative nor forced, and
there was evidence of trust, familiarity and closeness between the
photographer and the subjects. With the types of cameras he used (8x10, but
more recently Leica S2) there were not just a slice selected from thousands
of shots, but these photographs were created deliberately with care and
determination.

Out of curiosity, I went to see the Facebook group Tina mentioned. To my
eyes, they were just cheap, ie something money can buy. Most precious
things in life can't be bought. Jock Sturges created images that can't
bought, as did Richard Clompus who just brought us a very intriguing
photograph of a model's feet. How sensual they were!

On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 14:37, Ken Iisaka <ken at iisaka.com> wrote:

> Ok, how about Mapplethorpe? A lot of his work was banned, but the graphic
> depiction of sadomasochism in some of his work was his reality. I was
> repulsed by the graphic nature, yet I didn't get a sense of them being
> exploitative. The subjects of his work were collaborators, not someone
> cheaply paid for false promises and pretenses.
>
> On 7 May 2018 at 14:29, Ken Iisaka <ken at iisaka.com> wrote:
>
>> Ugh.. Araki must be one of the creepiest photographers who somehow gained
>> fame among even creepier audience. I've often found his images repulsive.
>>
>> Art exists to depict and cope with reality. As a pianist, I often work
>> with materials that deal with unspeakable darkness and suffering, but I
>> find materials that glorify enslavement or oppression of other human beings
>> repulsive.
>>
>> In intimate arts, such as those dealing with nudity or with the
>> inner-most, intimate details of one's life, there is no room for
>> exploitations. Exploitative materials are simply that: cheap and utterly
>> disposable pornography.
>>
>> I remember an old-time former member here, Jim Brick, vehemently
>> defending nude photographs of children and adolescents by Jock Sturges.
>> While I am not always comfortable with his commercial work, primarily
>> distorted depiction of nearly-starving adolescent girls outside their
>> natural habitat, I have found his more personal, intimate work beautiful.
>> Yes, there is much nudity but it was clearly not exploitative nor forced,
>> and there was evidence of trust, familiarity and closeness between the
>> photographer and the subjects. With the types of cameras he used (8x10, but
>> more recently Leica S2) there were not just a slice selected from thousands
>> of shots, but these photographs were created deliberately with care and
>> determination.
>>
>> Out of curiosity, I went to see the Facebook group Tina mentioned. To my
>> eyes, they were just cheap, ie something money can buy. Most precious
>> things in life can't be bought. Jock Sturges created images that can't
>> bought, as did Richard Clompus who just brought us a very intriguing
>> photograph of a model's feet. How sensual they were!
>>
>>
>> On 7 May 2018 at 13:35, Keith Wessel <keith at wesselphoto.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Someone (perhaps from this list) posted the following article on FB.   I
>>> think it furthers our understanding of Tina’s point.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/world/asia/nobuyoshi-araki-photographer-model.html
>>>
>>> This article also assists us understand.  It is not so much the nudity,
>>> or whether or not we like the art, it has something to do with power over
>>> the subject.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/13/opinion/contributors/salma-hayek-harvey-weinstein.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>
>>> From: Tina Manley via LUG
>>> Sent: Monday, May 7, 2018 1:19 PM
>>> To: Leica Users Group
>>> Cc: Tina Manley
>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] Was Need printing paper advice, Now NUDITY TINA.
>>>
>>> Thanks, Ted.  I know you never photographed nudes!  Irene had something
>>> to
>>> do with that, I'm sure ;-)  Tom knows my opinion of pornographic photos
>>> but
>>> even he jokes sometimes that I could make more money doing "erotic"
>>> photos
>>> and has volunteered to recruit models.  (NO!!  He knows his life would be
>>> in danger!)
>>>
>>> As the only regular female contributor to the LUG, I feel a
>>> responsibility
>>> to stand up against the trend on OTHER sites (not the LUG) of taking
>>> advantage of young girls by "dirty old men" with cameras.  I skip such
>>> sites and block them whenever I can but that doesn't help the young girls
>>> who are being taken advantage of.  Speaking up for them might help them
>>> to
>>> realize that their bodies are their own and to be valued instead of
>>> merchandized.
>>>
>>> This is a site on FB that I have blocked.  It's premise and statement
>>> have
>>> nothing at all to do with the photos that are posted.
>>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/spbph/
>>>
>>> This is the kind of salacious photography I am talking about.
>>>
>>> Most of the nude photography that has been posted on the LUG falls into
>>> the
>>> "art" category and I appreciate that.  It's wonderful for a family to
>>> visit
>>> an art gallery and admire beautiful depictions of the human body.  It's
>>> not
>>> fine for a family to look over Uncle Randy's shoulder as he peruses
>>> pornographic websites.  That's the difference for this LUG family member.
>>>
>>> Thanks, Brian.
>>>
>>> Tina
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Ted Grant via LUG <lug at leica-users.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hi Tina,
>>> > I agree with you absolutely! I many many years ago tried to shoot a
>>> nude or
>>> > two! But I was always freaked out about doing them that I'd get in real
>>> > trouble with my wife Irene. On top of that "my art photos" were about
>>> as
>>> > interesting as a pile of bricks!
>>> > Actually I think a pile of bricks would've been more interesting and
>>> > exciting. :-) So I stuck to war, sports and the world over enjoying
>>> myself
>>> > as you know! :-)
>>> > cheers,
>>> > Dr. ted  :-)
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: LUG [mailto:lug-bounces+tedgrant=shaw.ca at leica-users.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> > Of
>>> > Tina Manley via LUG
>>> > Sent: May-06-18 7:03 PM
>>> > To: lug
>>> > Cc: Tina Manley
>>> > Subject: [Leica] Was Need printing paper advice, Now NUDITY
>>> >
>>> > From: Tina Manley <tmanley at gmail.com>
>>> > Date: Sun, May 6, 2018 at 9:54 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: [Leica] Need printing paper advice
>>> > To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I'll claim a "Me, too" here and say that I do not appreciate any nudes
>>> > which appear to take advantage of unwitting females for the sole
>>> purpose of
>>> > exposing their bodies salaciously.  Gratuitous nakedness for the
>>> purpose of
>>> > arousal of one sex at the expense of the other, but claiming to be art,
>>> > offends me.
>>> >
>>> > That said, I appreciate nudity as art, but not as pornography.  Most
>>> of the
>>> > nude photography I have seen on the internet falls under the category
>>> of
>>> > "old, rich man with cameras taking advantage of poor, young girls with
>>> no
>>> > clothes who think they will be famous models."  On Facebook, the St.
>>> > Petersburg Photographic Society photos are almost entirely in that
>>> > category.  I find them very offensive and demeaning to women.
>>> >
>>> > If the nudity is labeled as such, I will view it and make my own
>>> decisions
>>> > as to whether or not to view more by that photographer. I do defend
>>> their
>>> > right to post the photos and do not approve of censorship.
>>> >
>>> > Tina
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 4:36 PM, Ken Carney <kcarney1 at cox.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Richard,
>>> > >
>>> > > I have had very good results with the Epson Velvet Fine Art for a
>>> matte
>>> > > paper, and Ilford Gold Mono Silk for glossy b&w (no idea why a
>>> particular
>>> > > paper would be better for b&w, but I like it).  Another excellent
>>> matte
>>> > > paper is Hahnemuhle Torchon or most any of the Hahnemuhle papers for
>>> that
>>> > > matter.  The photo ink line on my Epson 3880 failed, so I've been
>>> > > revisiting the matte papers.  I'll order a new P800 anyway, but it
>>> has
>>> > been
>>> > > an eye-opener after printing only on gloss papers the last several
>>> years.
>>> > >
>>> > > Speaking of nudes, many years ago I joined a local photography club
>>> and
>>> > it
>>> > > had a "competition" night.  In the spirit of things, I entered a b&w
>>> nude
>>> > > from a class with Cole Weston.  I was given one point out of five
>>> because
>>> > > "nudes are not an appropriate subject for a photo club".  In
>>> retrospect,
>>> > > they were pretty awful.
>>> > >
>>> > > Ken
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Leica Users Group.
>>> > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Leica Users Group.
>>> > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tina Manley
>>> www.tinamanley.com
>>> tina-manley.artistwebsites.com
>>>
>>> http://www.alamy.com/stock-photography/3B49552F-90A0-4D0A-A11D-2175C937AA91/Tina+Manley.html
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ken Iisaka
>> first name at last name dot org or com
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ken Iisaka
> first name at last name dot org or com
>
>