[Leica] URL: M10 interview with Stefan Daniel

[Frank Dernie]

All sensors have micro lenses over them, if I understand correctly, to compensate for the non-light -sensitive portions of the chip and concentrate all the light onto the sensitive bit. The difference is between the micro-lens positions relative to the pixel. On most sensors there is a symmetrical micro-lens array over  the whole sensor for the M sensor the microlenses are directly over the pixels in the centre of the sensor but are increasingly offset towards the centre as the distance of the pixel from the centre of the sensor increases thereby partly compensating for the fact that the typical rangefinder lens has an exit pupil much closer to the sensor than lenses originally designed for reflex cameras.
Those of us old enough, and interested enough, to have followed the development of digital photography will remember the early Sony and, particularly, Olympus publicity pointing out that lenses designed for film were not necessarily suitable for use on a digital sensor.
I am sure that has not changed but two things have, firstly lenses designed in the last decades will have been designed with this in mind, and sensors will have microlens arrays to compensate to a degree.
Clearly if there are offset microlenses then these can only be absolutely spot-on for one exit pupil distance, and fine for a range either side, depending on the actual geometry.
I wonder if all sensors have offset microlenses nowadays, just not as much as the M sensor, since few, if any, lenses have their exit pupils at infinity which would be the optimum for a symmetrical position?

Frank D.

> On 31 Jan 2017, at 07:12, Frank Filippone <red735i at verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> To add to John's response......  and what I write is my firm belief, but I have no facts to support it.... ( why should that matter, this IS the Internet isn't it?)
> 
> Leica seems to interpret a "Sensor" as the assembly of silicon chip, case, glass cover,  micro lenses, and PCB to hold it all as a "Sensor" and possibly the image processing chip.  In a recent interview with Stephan Daniels, he is asked about the sensor and responds in this way.
> I am an Integrated Circuit guy..... which means I interpret the ward "sensor" to mean the silicon chip....  No more, no less.
> 
> When Leica says the M10 sensor is different from the SL sensor, and using Daniels' interpretation, adding the micro lenses to the SL chip would make it a "new" sensor.....  ditto new PCB or image processor or....  changing to eh Maestro II processor would be a "new" sensor......... you get the idea....
> 
> My guess is that after spending a small fortune on the M240 sensor ( remember Leica had it designed by CMOSIS and fabbed by STM Microelectronics and or Fujitsu, unclear which is the current foundry), that the IC chip inside is the same from all 3 cameras... what IS different among the 3, is the micro lenses, cover glass plate, and for sure the accompanying PCB that supports it all, and image processing chip with its attendant FW.....
> 
> M240 = Maestro processor, micro lenses
> SL Processor = remove the micro lenses
> M10 processor = Maestro II processor, micro lenses
> 
> So if Frank is right, how does he explain the differences in the optical outputs, which are very different between the 3 cameras?
> 
> The output of the sensor goes to the image processing chip...... now the Maestro 2 processor.  The firmware written for this chip has been changed and  improved... thus different outputs....  
> Do I have ANY data to prove this?  Nope, it just makes most sense financially and in an engineering sense..... and why the M10 has only a 24MP sensor, rather than the larger MP output that was expected....
> 
> How would this be proved?  Using a microscope and looking at the sensor chip.. With experience it is easy to tell if the chips are the same or different........
> 
> It is always more sexy to say you have a NEW and IMPROVED sensor than to say you have a tweaked sensor.....
> 
> References to Tide products is fully intentional.....
> 
> Frank Filippone
> 
> Red735i at verizon.net
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: LUG [mailto:lug-bounces+red735i=verizon.net at leica-users.org] On Behalf Of John McMaster
> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 11:05 AM
> To: Leica Users Group
> Subject: Re: [Leica] URL: M10 interview with Stefan Daniel
> 
> Because there is a short distance between the rear element and the sensor there are micro lenses to aid as you get further from the sensor. Also a thinner glass cover.
> 
> http://www.the.me/the-leica-m-max-sensor-explained/
> 
> These are the reasons that M non-retrofocus lenses do not play well with standard Sony, and I have read neither with the SL, compared to SLR style lenses.
> 
> john
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> What does this mean:
> 
> "Jesko: It’s true that it is a really brand new sensor. Of course the experience from SL and Q take action also in developing the sensor for the M system. It is not the same, even though it is same spec 24 MP and the performance is also quite similar. but it is a unique sensor, and M lenses need a special certain design especially the micro lens shift, special glass package.”
> 
> I’m wondering about the last sentence about micro lens shift and special glass package? Is that about the sensor or the lens that needs the special design?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Adam
> 
>> On 2017 Jan 30, at 5:33 AM, John McMaster <john at mcmaster.fr> wrote:
>> 
>> http://leicarumors.com/2017/01/29/leica-m10-interview-why-no-video-where-is-the-typ-label-compressed-dng-files-and-more.aspx/#more-44744
>> 
>> john
>> 
> 
> 
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