[Leica] (SPAM: ?) Re: Reuters bans RAW

Thu Nov 19 22:03:31 PST 2015

Exactly my point, Mark. Somebody with an executive title decided that
because the public now believes that a lot of news photos are faked, he
would announce a policy that would address that perception.  By not
allowing any "manipulation," the public would believe that the integrity of
Reuters' photos would be guaranteed. The problem is, it does no such
thing.  And, as you say, it takes away the ability of the photographer to
get more information out of the photo.

Like you, I spent a lot of time waving my hands and bits of wire and
cardboard under an enlarger. The digital equivalent thereof is good, too.
I consider it an indispensable part of the craft. It's total nonsense for a
major news outlet to lump dodging and burning under the same category as
Photoshopping someone or some thing in or out of a photo.

--Peter

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 7:12 PM, Mark Rabiner <mark at rabinergroup.com> wrote:

> Actually Peter dodging and burning an image from a film negative or a
> digital file is not creating a fake photo. Its just ensuring that all the
> information you were looking at when you took the picture gets seen in the
> end product.
> Its call "craft". Its calling being a master of your materials.
>  Without  better than low level software like you are using what you are
> getting is like what you get back from Walgreens or a Kiosk in the middle
> of
> a parking lot. Snapshots.
> I can tell you when you make pictures in our high school darkroom for the
> high school paper they expected dodging and burning, local photography
> controls of contrast and density. The idea that not with digital we can't
> do
> that lowers the level of work so they look worse than high school paper.
> And
> are certainly not fit for professional work. If you notice when you Bing or
> Goggle photojournalism  the shots you are looking at do not look like
> snapshots. There has been some local control. There has been some craft.
> On the lists the people who have other things on their mind then quality
> photography call this "Manipulation" and you just called it " fake photos".
>
>
> On 11/19/15 9:58 PM, "Peter Klein" <boulanger.croissant at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I understand that most spot-news photographers are already shooting JPG
> > for
> speed reasons. But Reuters' corporate spin is that the policy will
> > ensure
> honest photographs that "reflect reality."  And Reuters has said that
> > they
> will check (probably the EXIF, by computer) to insure that all
> > photos
> submitted came from in-camera JPGs, and not have been developed from
> > RAW.
> So there's more than just a "smaller files are faster" push here.
>
> But
> > it's B.S. Unless Reuters insists on checksum-generating cameras, the
> people
> > who really want to fake photos still will. Most of us on this list
> know how
> > easy it is to edit EXIF data.  So what this policy is saying to
> photographers
> > is "We don't trust you. So we'll make a policy that will take
> away standard
> > tools of the trade, and convince ourselves and the public
> that this solves the
> > problem, even though it doesn't."
>
> You know how the corporate world often
> > works.  A Big Powerful Executive
> announces that he or she has solved a problem
> > by his ground-breaking new
> policy. He/she may not know anything about what he
> > is proposing. It may
> wreak havoc with the little people who actually do the
> > work, but "theirs is
> not to reason why."  They can be brought into line by
> > compliance training
> plus a few examples of draconian discipline or summary
> > dismissal. The next
> thing you know, other executives, who want to appear as
> > Big and Powerful as
> the first one, play copycat. All the big guys get their
> > big bonuses for
> having taken decisive action to solve a problem. Word spreads
> > through the
> industry that this policy is a good thing to do.  And by the time
> > news of
> the damage caused filters up the chain of command, it will be blamed
> > on
> something else, on someone else lower in rank, or the messenger will
> > be
> shot.
>
> Dodging and burning are usually not a dishonest altering reality.
> > They are
> a way of making the photo better resemble what the human eye saw,
> > with its
> ability to scan and see both highlights and shadows.  They have been
> > an
> important tool in photography for over a century.  I don't think
> > that
> option should be taken away from photographers and editors. Having a
> > RAW
> option is important for high-contrast situations--such as
> > low-latitude
> deserts in bright daylight. Regrettably, there are going to be a
> > lot more
> news photos coming from such locations. Also, with all of the mixed
> > light
> sources photographers have to deal with, being able to use different
> > white
> balance settings on different part of the photo is important.
>
> Mark
> > mentions National Geographic.  Well, faked wildlife photos have caused
> some
> > scandals recently. And NG is now owned by Rupert Murdoch, (supposedly)
> a news
> > guy. So this policy could very well be adopted by National
> Geographic one of
> > these days.  I just hope that magazine and
> "editorial" photographers don't end
> > up having this policy shoved down their
> throats as well.
>
> --Peter
>
> On Thu, Nov
> > 19, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Mark Rabiner <mark at rabinergroup.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > "³Speed is also very important to us. We have therefore asked our
> >
> > photographers to skip labor and time consuming processes to get our
> >
> > pictures
> > to our clients faster.²"
> >
> > 'The bulk of the people sending in
> > stuff to Rueters and AP are Rueters and
> > AP photographers who have never shot
> > RAW in their lives but have been
> > hitting deadlines measured in minutes and
> > seconds and sending off their
> > shots moments after taking them usually in a
> > crowd of other photographers
> > all flashing their flashes. They are not
> > shooting for their shots to be
> > enduring, they are not shooting quality work
> > they seem to never have their
> > flash not on their cameras and never seem to
> > turn them off.  Its this
> > mornings new flash.
> > I think if this was more
> > about magazine work where your deadline is a week
> > away and its like National
> > Geographic or something of some real enduring
> > quality than this would be way
> > more of a travesty than it is.
> >
> > On 11/19/15 10:16 AM, "Tina Manley"
> > <images at comporium.net> wrote:
> >
> > > I think most of their shooters already use
> > jpeg only just for speed.
> > Some
> > > take both RAW and jpeg - the jpeg to
> > submit and the RAW to work on later
> > > for themselves.  Makes sense, but I
> > would never shoot jpeg only.
> > >
> > > Tina
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 1:35
> > AM, Peter Klein <
> > boulanger.croissant at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> <
> >
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> >
> http://petapixel.com/2015/11/18/reuters-issues-a-worldwide-ban-on-raw-photos/
>
> > > >> #more-191527
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> I thought this was a hoax, but evidently
> > not. It sounds like this
> > decision
> > >> was made by an executive type with no
> > technical knowledge of
> > photography. I
> > >> guess dodging and burning are now
> > the enemy of truth.  But if
> > photographers
> > >> are still allowed to crop and
> > adjust levels, how is it going to stop
> > >> dishonest photoshopping? Is
> > Reuters going to only allow the use of
> > cameras
> > >> that generate JPG
> > checksums, with all cropping and levels editing done
> > in
> > >> camera?
> > >>
> >
> > >> Prepare for a lot of badly-exposed backlit, side-lit and
> > >>
> > sunlight-with-black-shadows pictures, I guess.
> > >>
> > >> --Peter
> > >>
> > >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > >> Leica Users Group.
> > >>
> > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
> > >>
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mark William Rabiner
> > Photographer
> >
> > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/lugalrabs/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Leica Users Group.
> > See
> > http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more
> > information
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> > Group.
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>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark William Rabiner
> Photographer
> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/lugalrabs/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information