[Leica] New M(246) Outputs 12 bit Files

Wed May 6 21:14:23 PDT 2015

> On May 6, 2015, at 6:57 PM, Mark Rabiner <mark at rabinergroup.com> wrote:
> 
> Leica had to know it was going to have all eyes on them when it downgraded
> the new Monochrom model to 12 instead of 14 bit so one could assume that
> they'd have plenty to back it up. And that would be the quality of the final
> product, the image, again.
> I'm not believing they did it to save a buck or shave a few microseconds off
> the speed and or buffer size. I think its an issue they're going to explain
> to all the news lists going crazy over it right now like us but the have the
> timing down as to when exactly is the right time to do it. I'm guessing a
> few weeks when they have some big prints out there in view. Also magazine of
> web articles from some of the people using it gushing about how great it is.
> They've handed out a few cameras to pros and people like Erwin.

Mark, I love the way you speak for Leica without knowing the facts, imagine if the leica reps made it up as they went along.

s

> On 5/6/15 1:49 PM, "Frank Filippone" <red735i at verizon.net> wrote:
> 
>> You are dealing with too many variables to establish cost difference in the
>> 2 sensors in question.
>> 
>> If you were to ask me if there was any difference in the cost of the ADC on
>> the chip between the 12 and 14 bit resolution, all other things equal (
>> which they are not), the difference in cost is negligible.  Even the larger
>> processing engine ( Maestro, which is probably 16 bits anyway) ) and related
>> chip costs ( temporary storage of 12 vs 14 bit data, etc) , are negligible.
>> 
>> The dominant by far issue in chip yield is size of the chip.  The sensor
>> chips are huge, loaded with sensor pixels.  The overhead electronics,
>> including the ADC,  is relatively small, like a 1-10% issue, and maybe less.
>> The difference between 12 and 14 bits is 2/12 or 17%, on less than 1% of
>> chip area... Tiny is an overstatement.
>> 
>> If you want to know the difference in cost to the consumer of the complete
>> camera, if one were to use a 2 or 14 bit ADC, then the only costs I could
>> figure relevant is the size of the temporary buffer that stores the images
>> before they get transferred to the SD card.  I don't think it is really an
>> issue... since memory chips are only available in certain sizes ( usually in
>> 4x increments: 4MB, 16MB, 64MB, 256MB.. you get the idea) and usually the
>> solution is to store less images and cut back on the buffer SIZE in image
>> quantity.... 14 in storage with a 12 bit ADC vs 12 in storage with a 12 bit
>> ADC is, if not purely correct, the right concept.  Ie, NADA effect on final
>> cost.
>> 
>> What effects final consumer cost the most is .... wait for it.... you know
>> it is coming.... Greed.  Profit.  Meeting Shareholder expectations. Getting
>> the most bucks from Bob.
>> 
>> All other things on a level playing field.
>> 
>> Frank Filippone
>> Red735i at verizon.net
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: LUG [mailto:lug-bounces+red735i=verizon.net at leica-users.org] On Behalf
>> Of Steve Barbour
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 10:27 AM
>> To: Leica LUG
>> Subject: Re: [Leica] New M(246) Outputs 12 bit Files
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 6, 2015, at 10:17 AM, Frank Filippone <red735i at verizon.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Mark and others....
>>> 
>>> The issue of 12 vs 14 bits is not straight forward.....  Yes, the
>>> difference in a straight line way is 4 times the data, but really that
>>> means there is 4 times the GRADATION in the data.  More gradation =
>>> more smooth transitions between different tones.
>>> 
>>> Assuming the saturation point ( top value) and lowest point ( pure
>>> black, as in more black is just not possible) remain fixed. Then there
>>> could be a bit of non linear-ness to the ADC... There may be more
>>> values in the bright areas, and less in the dark areas.... still
>>> achieving the same dynamic range,. But 12 bits and 14 bits could have
>>> different non-linear transfer functions....  Which, in the context of
>>> photography, may not be at all easy to see with the eyes.
>>> 
>>> Let me stop here... I spent the better part of my working career in
>>> understanding the intricacies of ADC products.  If I go any further in the
>>> explanation, I will lose almost everyone.    Suffice it to say that what
>> we
>>> do not know exceeds what we do know.
>>> 
>>> Yes, there is a story out there... Yes it is important that we know
>>> what that story is, in theory.  In practice, the M246 seems to produce
>>> better images than the MM.... 12 bits 14 bits or some other number of
>> bits.
>>> 
>>> I agree with Mark.. HDD storage is so cheap that 12 vs 14 bits is a
>>> ridiculous reason to chintz on the ADC resolution.  There is some
>>> other reason.
>> 
>> 
>> Frank ...how bout in the cost of the camera, 14 v 12 bit,  is there a big
>> difference, so some one could think after reading the morning paper,  the
>> images  look about the same so we'll same some money in the camera cost,
>> both manufacture and cost to the consumer, i.e. they were just trying to
>> save some money so Bob could afford groceries.....
>> 
>> 
>> steve
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Or, someone made a bad assumption in the first place and this whole
>>> thread is a waste of time.
>>> 
>>> Frank Filippone
>>> Red735i at verizon.net
>>> 
>>> Peter according  to some guy on the internet its not a matter of a few
>>> steps up from 12 to 14 bit. Its  4 times as many shades of intensity
>>> in a given range.
>>> That sounds like a big deal for me.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mark William Rabiner
> Photographer
> http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/lugalrabs/
> 
> 
> 
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