Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2015/05/06
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]> On May 6, 2015, at 6:57 PM, Mark Rabiner <mark at rabinergroup.com> wrote: > > Leica had to know it was going to have all eyes on them when it downgraded > the new Monochrom model to 12 instead of 14 bit so one could assume that > they'd have plenty to back it up. And that would be the quality of the > final > product, the image, again. > I'm not believing they did it to save a buck or shave a few microseconds > off > the speed and or buffer size. I think its an issue they're going to explain > to all the news lists going crazy over it right now like us but the have > the > timing down as to when exactly is the right time to do it. I'm guessing a > few weeks when they have some big prints out there in view. Also magazine > of > web articles from some of the people using it gushing about how great it > is. > They've handed out a few cameras to pros and people like Erwin. Mark, I love the way you speak for Leica without knowing the facts, imagine if the leica reps made it up as they went along. s > On 5/6/15 1:49 PM, "Frank Filippone" <red735i at verizon.net> wrote: > >> You are dealing with too many variables to establish cost difference in >> the >> 2 sensors in question. >> >> If you were to ask me if there was any difference in the cost of the ADC >> on >> the chip between the 12 and 14 bit resolution, all other things equal ( >> which they are not), the difference in cost is negligible. Even the >> larger >> processing engine ( Maestro, which is probably 16 bits anyway) ) and >> related >> chip costs ( temporary storage of 12 vs 14 bit data, etc) , are >> negligible. >> >> The dominant by far issue in chip yield is size of the chip. The sensor >> chips are huge, loaded with sensor pixels. The overhead electronics, >> including the ADC, is relatively small, like a 1-10% issue, and maybe >> less. >> The difference between 12 and 14 bits is 2/12 or 17%, on less than 1% of >> chip area... Tiny is an overstatement. >> >> If you want to know the difference in cost to the consumer of the complete >> camera, if one were to use a 2 or 14 bit ADC, then the only costs I could >> figure relevant is the size of the temporary buffer that stores the images >> before they get transferred to the SD card. I don't think it is really an >> issue... since memory chips are only available in certain sizes ( usually >> in >> 4x increments: 4MB, 16MB, 64MB, 256MB.. you get the idea) and usually the >> solution is to store less images and cut back on the buffer SIZE in image >> quantity.... 14 in storage with a 12 bit ADC vs 12 in storage with a 12 >> bit >> ADC is, if not purely correct, the right concept. Ie, NADA effect on >> final >> cost. >> >> What effects final consumer cost the most is .... wait for it.... you know >> it is coming.... Greed. Profit. Meeting Shareholder expectations. >> Getting >> the most bucks from Bob. >> >> All other things on a level playing field. >> >> Frank Filippone >> Red735i at verizon.net >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: LUG [mailto:lug-bounces+red735i=verizon.net at leica-users.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Steve Barbour >> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 10:27 AM >> To: Leica LUG >> Subject: Re: [Leica] New M(246) Outputs 12 bit Files >> >> >>> On May 6, 2015, at 10:17 AM, Frank Filippone <red735i at verizon.net> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Mark and others.... >>> >>> The issue of 12 vs 14 bits is not straight forward..... Yes, the >>> difference in a straight line way is 4 times the data, but really that >>> means there is 4 times the GRADATION in the data. More gradation = >>> more smooth transitions between different tones. >>> >>> Assuming the saturation point ( top value) and lowest point ( pure >>> black, as in more black is just not possible) remain fixed. Then there >>> could be a bit of non linear-ness to the ADC... There may be more >>> values in the bright areas, and less in the dark areas.... still >>> achieving the same dynamic range,. But 12 bits and 14 bits could have >>> different non-linear transfer functions.... Which, in the context of >>> photography, may not be at all easy to see with the eyes. >>> >>> Let me stop here... I spent the better part of my working career in >>> understanding the intricacies of ADC products. If I go any further in >>> the >>> explanation, I will lose almost everyone. Suffice it to say that what >> we >>> do not know exceeds what we do know. >>> >>> Yes, there is a story out there... Yes it is important that we know >>> what that story is, in theory. In practice, the M246 seems to produce >>> better images than the MM.... 12 bits 14 bits or some other number of >> bits. >>> >>> I agree with Mark.. HDD storage is so cheap that 12 vs 14 bits is a >>> ridiculous reason to chintz on the ADC resolution. There is some >>> other reason. >> >> >> Frank ...how bout in the cost of the camera, 14 v 12 bit, is there a big >> difference, so some one could think after reading the morning paper, the >> images look about the same so we'll same some money in the camera cost, >> both manufacture and cost to the consumer, i.e. they were just trying to >> save some money so Bob could afford groceries..... >> >> >> steve >> >> >>> >>> >>> Or, someone made a bad assumption in the first place and this whole >>> thread is a waste of time. >>> >>> Frank Filippone >>> Red735i at verizon.net >>> >>> Peter according to some guy on the internet its not a matter of a few >>> steps up from 12 to 14 bit. Its 4 times as many shades of intensity >>> in a given range. >>> That sounds like a big deal for me. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Leica Users Group. >>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > > > > -- > Mark William Rabiner > Photographer > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/lugalrabs/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information