Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2013/07/04
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]It is time to put this thread to rest. It has gotten out of hand, and that is a pity. I apologize to the group for my role in it. Please do make sure you spell my name properly in your lesson plans. Barney Barney Quinn, WK3Z C: (301) 775-1386 H: (301) 654-0938 On Jul 4, 2013, at 7:43 PM, Chris Crawford <chris at chriscrawfordphoto.com> wrote: > Barney, > > My classes are about interpreting literature. I'm going to use this in my > lessons for next year on how people use emotional appeals, denials that > truth exists, irrelevant arguments, boasting of past accomplishments, and > fake moral outrage (including appeals to religion/God) in written and > spoken communication to manipulate people when the facts are not on their > side. Thanks! > > -- > Chris Crawford > Fine Art Photography > Fort Wayne, Indiana > 260-437-8990 > > http://www.chriscrawfordphoto.com My portfolio > > http://www.facebook.com/pages/Christopher-Crawford/48229272798 > Become a fan on Facebook > > > > On 7/2/13 5:23 PM, "Barney Quinn" <bjq1 at mac.com> wrote: > >> >> No. Tina made it because she is a superb photographer. It has nothing to >> do with when she started or what equipment she started with. I have read >> what you have written. I wonder if you have read, or understood, a word I >> have sent to you. My issue with your emails is not your description of >> the photographic market place. I have made no comment on that. Nor do I >> intend to. My issue is the rude and arrogant manner in which you have >> treated a respected member of this group. I very much think that Tina's >> experience is relevant to the lives of other, especially younger >> photographers. Experience is always relevant. >> >> You assert that you will not apologize for telling the truth to anyone. >> That, of course, begs some serious questions in epistemology, namely what >> is truth, what is true, and how do you know it is true? Telling what you >> believe to be the truth in a way that is hurtful and destructive is not >> honesty, it is stupidity because it dilutes your ability to >> communicate.You might try it. You may find you have a lot easier time >> getting your points across. >> >> Your story about your student and telling time troubled me for two >> reasons. You humiliated that person in front of his or her peers. You >> probably caused that person significant pain. We are all children of God. >> People deserve to be respected on that basis alone. To with hold respect >> in the manner you did is not a good thing to do, and it resonates with >> the way you have treated Tina. "I am doing it for your own good" is one >> of the oldest and most feeble rationalizations in the books. The fact >> that you bullied the student into doing what you wanted doesn't make how >> you acted proper. The assertion that I am telling the truth and I will >> never apologize for that is also a very weak defense. >> >> I also experienced the story as arrogant and belittling. If I learn how >> to tell time you will respect me. That's condescending. I was one of the >> forty people who founded National Public Radio. I have produced and >> directed All things Considered, I was one of the leaders of the team who >> got Morning Edition on the Air, and I headed the documentary production >> unit for a decade. I assure you, I know how to read a clock, a stopwatch >> and I know how to tell time. >> >> Barney? >> >> >> >> E-Mail: bjq1 at mac.com >> Home: (301) 654-0938 >> Cell: (301) 775-1386 >> >> >> On Jul 02, 2013, at 04:06 PM, Chris Crawford >> <chris at chriscrawfordphoto.com> wrote: >> >>> Tina made it because she started out a very long time ago. She has >>> stated >>> that she invested the money she made in better times in the past and >>> used >>> that to buy her digital Leicas today. Nothing wrong with that, but that >>> means her experience is not relevant to young ones just starting out. >>> New >>> photojournalists today do not make the money to buy that stuff. Sorry to >>> upset you with facts, but that's reality. What I said was true, and will >>> never apologize for telling the truth to anyone. >>> >>> Not one person who has complained about what I said has taken issue with >>> the facts of what I said, except you. The others knew I was right, but >>> didn't like those facts, so they attacked the way I said it. I stand by >>> every word I have written. >>> >>> This reminds me of one time a student showed up for class late for the >>> 5th >>> day in a row. I told him he needed to learn to tell time, which made him >>> mad. "You're disrespecting me!" I told him to start coming to class on >>> time, and I'll respect him, which made the rest of the class break out >>> in >>> laughter. The student started coming to class on time after that. >>> >>> 99% of the problem with today's world is people value feelings over >>> facts >>> and rationality. >>> >>> -- >>> Chris Crawford >>> Fine Art Photography >>> Fort Wayne, Indiana >>> 260-437-8990 >>> >>> http://www.chriscrawfordphoto.com My portfolio >>> >>> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Christopher-Crawford/48229272798 >>> Become a fan on Facebook >>> >>> >>> >>> On 7/2/13 3:51 PM, "Barney Quinn" <bjq1 at mac.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> This is in no sense an improvement. You have, in my view, made things >>>> worse. The face that your have been abused in your life, or the fact >>> that >>>> people have said hard things to you in no way, under no circumstances >>>> provides you with any reasonable justification for abusing or being >>> angry >>>> with any other human being. Two wrongs to not make a right. That is a >>>> totally bankrupt moral position. Quite the contrary. Having been hurt >>> it >>>> should motivate you to take care not to injure others. >>>> >>>> What you said to Tina was hurtful. Rewording it so that it says parent, >>>> partner, boy friend, girlfriend, aunt, uncle, or whomever in no way >>> makes >>>> the remark acceptable because the core thrust of your comment is that >>>> Tina can't make it on her own. That is simply not true. She did. I have >>>> enormous respect for her as a person and as a photographer. I do not >>>> comment on it all that often, but I very much enjoy her pictures. I >>>> always make it a point to look at them. >>>> >>>> The prime tenant of being in a hole, which is where you are, is to stop >>>> digging. Wouldn't it be better all around if you put down your shovel, >>>> stopped digging, admitted you crossed a line you would have been better >>>> advised not to cross, apologize, and then got on with your photography. >>>> >>>> Perhaps you might consider taking the advice you gave Tina. What is it >>>> about this discussion which has such an emotional hold on you?? >>>> >>>> Banrey >>>> >>>> >>>> E-Mail: bjq1 at mac.com >>>> Home: (301) 654-0938 >>>> Cell: (301) 775-1386 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 02, 2013, at 02:46 PM, Chris Crawford >>>> <chris at chriscrawfordphoto.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Tina, what I said about your husband having to buy you gear wasn't >>> meant >>>>> to be sexist. If you were not married, I'd have said your parents >>> would >>>>> have to do it, and if you were a man I'd say wife or parents >>> depending >>>>> on >>>>> if you were married. Someone with money would have to buy you the >>> gear >>>>> you >>>>> use if you were starting your career now because as a professional >>>>> photographer, you would absolutely not earn enough yourself to do it. >>>>> As I >>>>> said in my original post, that is not a negative comment on the >>> worth of >>>>> your photographs, it is simply the economic reality in today's world >>>>> where >>>>> photojournalists are so poorly paid. As I said in my original post, I >>>>> make >>>>> more as a first year high school teacher than fulltime >>> photojournalists >>>>> I >>>>> know who have 20-30 yrs experience! >>>>> >>>>> The kids at my school caused two of the older teachers to break down >>>>> crying in their classrooms last year, and both quit teaching >>> afterward. >>>>> I >>>>> had students say some shocking and horrible things to me when I first >>>>> started but I just laughed it off. Once the kids realized that I >>> wasn't >>>>> going to get all emotional and lose my cool, they started to respect >>> me >>>>> and by the end of the school year they had come to like me. >>>>> >>>>> My point is that you shouldn't let yourself get too emotional about >>> your >>>>> gear or about what people say on the internet. Leica is not a member >>> of >>>>> your family, it is not a friend, and it is not God. It is a business, >>>>> and >>>>> like all businesses, it exists to make money, not to care about you >>> or >>>>> your photography. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Chris Crawford >>>>> Fine Art Photography >>>>> Fort Wayne, Indiana >>>>> 260-437-8990 >>>>> >>>>> http://www.chriscrawfordphoto.com My portfolio >>>>> >>>>> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Christopher-Crawford/48229272798 >>>>> Become a fan on Facebook >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 7/2/13 1:46 PM, "Tina Manley" <images at comporium.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thank you, Lluis. Your opinion means a lot to me. Being "just" a >>> woman. >>>>>> when I get emotional or angry, I cry. It's hard to explain to Tom >>> why I >>>>>> have been sitting at the computer all morning crying. I wrote the >>>>> history >>>>>> of my business to justify to myself and to him that I don't need to >>>>>> excuses >>>>>> or justifications or explanations ;-) ! I'm going to spend the >>>>> afternoon >>>>>> wallpapering and dancing! >>>>>> >>>>>> Tina >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Lluis Ripoll >>>>>> <lluisripollquerol at gmail.com>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> TINA, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I had no time to follow the discussion, and neither I wan't >>> continue >>>>> on >>>>>>> it, I have other things where I want employ my time. Just read few >>>>> from >>>>>>> Ted >>>>>>> and you now and I would like just to add two cents. You Tina, you >>>>> don't >>>>>>> need explain neither justify your work, we know it, and I say once >>>>> more >>>>>>> congratulations for this. It is not your fault if you have make >>>>>>> business, >>>>>>> this is the target many of us wanted, it is not your fault if >>> Leica >>>>> is >>>>>>> maybe the best camera system ever made, everyone can do his own >>>>> choice, >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> is not your fault if you have bought or not bought any lens in the >>>>>>> latest >>>>>>> years, you don't need justify anything, just continue showing and >>>>>>> letting >>>>>>> us continue enjoy your work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you for all of this, you have been very kind telling us all >>>>> these >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Saludos desde Barcelona! >>>>>>> Lluis >>>>>>> >>>>>>> El 02/07/2013, a las 17:38, Tina Manley escribi?: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> LEICA USERS GROUP - >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have been a professional photographer since I incorporated my >>>>>>> business >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> 1980. I have worked really hard to make my business >>> self-supporting >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> is. I worked for many years as a teacher until my photography >>>>>>> business >>>>>>>> began to bring in more money than teaching. I bought my first >>> Leica >>>>>>> M6 >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> 1989 because my old Minolta SRT101 would not hold up to the >>> extreme >>>>>>>> conditions of my trips throughout the developing world, where >>> most >>>>> of >>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> assignments were. I have used Leica M6, M4, M3, M2, M7, M8, M9 >>> and >>>>> MM >>>>>>>> cameras. I have Leica M lenses from the 21 to the 135. All of my >>>>>>> Leica >>>>>>>> lenses are old. I have not bought a Leica M lens in many years. >>> All >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> Leica cameras were bought and paid for with money from my >>> business. >>>>>>> As >>>>>>>> digital cameras have improved, I have upgraded my Leica cameras. >>>>> If I >>>>>>> had >>>>>>>> not had to switch to digital for business reasons, I would >>> still be >>>>>>> using >>>>>>>> my Leica film cameras. None of my purchases were made for >>> emotional >>>>>>>> reasons. Leicas perform for me. I would not use them if they did >>>>>>> not. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have never had a Leica camera fail that Leica did not repair >>>>> quickly, >>>>>>>> sending me lenders overnight. I am sorry that the cameras are so >>>>>>> expensive >>>>>>>> but I do believe you get what you pay for. In my experience, >>> Leicas >>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> worth what I pay for them. I have never used a Fuji camera or an >>>>>>> Olympus. >>>>>>>> I'm sure they are wonderful. I hated the Canons I used when I >>> first >>>>>>>> switched to digital. At this stage of my life, I am not >>> interested >>>>> in >>>>>>>> switching systems. I am not interested in using medium format >>>>> cameras >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> cannot imagine carrying one to some of the places I travel. >>> Leicas >>>>>>> happen >>>>>>>> to be the perfect cameras for me and my work. That's why I'm on >>> a >>>>>>> Leica >>>>>>>> Users Group. If you hate Leicas, perhaps you should be on >>> another >>>>>>> group! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tina >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Tina Manley >>>>>>>> http://tina-manley.artistwebsites.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more >>>>> information >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more >>> information >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Tina Manley >>>>>> http://tina-manley.artistwebsites.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Leica Users Group. >>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Leica Users Group. >>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information