Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2013/05/26
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]You know, Mark, for years I heard you ranting this full frame thing as opposed to APS-C or heaven forbid, 4/3. And for years I was shooting with APS-C sensors and getting great shots. But I have to tell you, that since switching to the D600, I am changing my tune to match yours. There is no comparison to my D7000 or my father-in-law's D300. Not just in low light, but for any wide dynamic range situation. I need to do very little manipulation on my D600 files as opposed to my D7000. I am amazed. Maybe some of that is due to it being one generation newer chip and processor technology. I don't know. Would I see a big difference between my D7000 and the new D7100? Not sure. But the difference seems to be quite vast for just one generation. So, Mark. I am with you from now on, on this point. Full frame or no frame..... Well, maybe not that drastic. My favorite camera continues to be the one I have in my hand. Aram -------------------------------------------------- From: "Mark Rabiner" <mark at rabinergroup.com> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:20 PM To: "Leica Users Group" <lug at leica-users.org> Subject: Re: [Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations > If that were true there would have been a huge market for half frame film > cameras before digital hit. There was none because the quality difference > between half frame and full frame. And the slightly smaller camera body > form you'd get with half frame was really not worth it. Full frame cameras > fit in your pocket. > Most of the pre digital compact cameras were made with a 35mm cassette and > 24x36 format so the end result was really in the more important ways not > all > the different from a hulking SLR weighing 2 or 3 pounds. > When you needed that big print you could get it with the camera you pulled > out of your pocket. > > The problem is in this digital age people think this carries over. > They're going to just shoot with a compact camera and its just going to be > just fine like when they shot with their olupus XA or Rollei 35 or Contax > or > Nikon. > But oops the sensor is a fraction of the size! > "Well who cameras I just want it to be cheap and fit in my pocket and I'll > buy a better one in two year's." > > Few people who shot 35mm film ever make 11x14's or 16x20s ever. > But when they did need perhaps unexpended to make print of some real size > they mare able to do it. > Shoot with a compact with a much smaller size that 24x36 and that's not > going to be an option. That large print which you out of the blue need to > make will embarrass you. > The fact is when your out shooting with a compact digital consumer compact > you're just not getting the shot. Sure its on your little web page or > gallery but realistically its just a shell game. You're really just > pretending. Its a jpeg. > I say if you're going to drag yourself out somewhere and stand there and > do > a photograph why not really do it? And not with a stupid toy camera? > > > On 5/25/13 3:05 PM, "Richard S. Taylor" <r.s.taylor at comcast.net> wrote: > >> Steve - I agree with this completely. Sensor size is only relevant to >> the >> size of print you want to make, the noise you can live with, and the >> dynamic >> range you need. For much, maybe most of what I do, micro-4/3rds is just >> fine >> even though I'm shooting mostly with a X Pro-1 these days. >> >> I still think Leica missed the boat by not bringing out a very high >> quality >> micro-4/3rds camera system. It would have been following in the great >> tradition of the company. >> >> There may be some movement in the press towards trying smaller sensor >> sizes. >> This year at the Boston Symphony concerts, the photographer covering them >> for >> the Boston Globe has switched from a big DSLR in a even larger wooden >> blimp to >> what looks to me to be a Panasonic GX-1 with a long zoom and no blimp. >> It >> will be interesting to see if he returns with it next year. >> >> Dick >> >> >> >> On May 25, 2013, at 2:48 PM, Steve Barbour wrote: >> >>> >>> On May 25, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Richard Taylor <r.s.taylor at comcast.net> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Well, as others have said, it's hard to imagine Leica competing with >>>> themselves so FF is not a starter, I think. Fuji and others have shown >>>> what >>>> can be done with APS-C so if the build and image quality with M lenses >>>> were >>>> high, I might go for that price. >>> >>> Remember Dick that there is nothing sacred about going to "full frame" >>> except >>> (other things being equal) that bigger is better (sorta like film). So >>> why >>> stop at full frame ? When you get to full frame, you will still want a >>> bigger sensor, and as the Sony RX1 has shown you can put a full frame >>> sensor >>> in a small camera body. And so it goes endlessly, unless at some point >>> you >>> say, I like my images just the way they are. >>> >>> >>> Steve >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 25, 2013, at 12:23 PM, grduprey at mchsi.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> $3.5 K would not be acceptable for a APS-C camera, a FF camera would >>>>> be >>>>> another thing all together. >>>>> >>>>> Gene >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Richard Taylor" <r.s.taylor at comcast.net> >>>>> To: "Leica Users Group" <lug at leica-users.org> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 11:00:36 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central >>>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] PESO: RG Lewis and Leica M frustrations >>>>> >>>>> I think Steve has it right. Unless the Mini proves to be a useable >>>>> camera >>>>> at an acceptable price, Leica will have truly and finally abandoned >>>>> those >>>>> of us looking for a practical tool in favor of the gifters and >>>>> collectors. >>>>> >>>>> Useable to my mind means that the camera has at least an APS-C sensor, >>>>> a >>>>> built-in EVF of a quality like that in the XE-1, and microlenses on >>>>> the >>>>> sensor to let us use M lenses with excellent image quality with or >>>>> without >>>>> an adapter. The anticipated price of about $3.5K would be in the >>>>> acceptable range for me if the camera met the other criteria. >>>>> >>>>> Dick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 25, 2013, at 11:05 AM, Steve Barbour wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 25, 2013, at 7:21 AM, Geoff Hopkinson <hopsternew at >>>>>> gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know if this translates well. In Australia we call this the >>>>>>> " >>>>>>> tall >>>>>>> poppy syndrome". Some people enjoy taking swipes at anyone >>>>>>> successful. >>>>>>> Good >>>>>>> on them. Of course it is in our interest too that Leica Camera does >>>>>>> well. >>>>>>> They make products that some of us value a lot for the photographs >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> can make with them and for the experience of using those products to >>>>>>> achieve that, They can sell as much as they want to anyone that may >>>>>>> value >>>>>>> their products for whatever reason they wish. Why would you care if >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> value Leica for the photographs you can make? >>>>>> >>>>>> If at this time virtually all of the product is going to people who >>>>>> don't >>>>>> make photographs, you can bet that I/we should care about it. Of >>>>>> course it >>>>>> is impacting our ability to make photos right now. But I don't think >>>>>> that >>>>>> you have answered my question. The short run is already surely >>>>>> impacted as >>>>>> I have just noted. I was asking about the longer run. What does this >>>>>> model >>>>>> predict in terms of future optical quality? >>>>>> >>>>>> I am now using a wonderful 1950's Leica Summicron 50/2 on a Fujifilm >>>>>> XE-1 >>>>>> body, with a better experience and with better results than with the >>>>>> latest Leica glass on my M9. Leica quality clearly is already >>>>>> compromised, >>>>>> and their plan to sell expensive gear to non users means that they >>>>>> are not >>>>>> currently giving priority to the practical needs of professionals and >>>>>> discriminating users. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Steve >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Breathe in, breathe out, move on* -- Jimmy Buffett >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>> Geoff >>>>>>> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 26 May 2013 00:04, Steve Barbour <steve.barbour at gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On May 25, 2013, at 6:55 AM, Jayanand Govindaraj >>>>>>>> <jayanand at gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nathan, >>>>>>>>> It has taken you a very long time to realize and accept this. I >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> sure >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> the strategic shift in marketing with the M8 itself - it was so >>>>>>>>> obvious >>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>> the marketing, the choice of magazines for advertisements, the >>>>>>>> positioning, >>>>>>>>> the advertorials, etc. With Blackstone's entrance, it was doubly >>>>>>>>> obvious, >>>>>>>>> especially when the ostensible reason for the investment was to >>>>>>>>> spread >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> Leica Boutiques, not develop new products. IMHO, it is great for >>>>>>>>> them, >>>>>>>>> because as in all MOJO businesses, the margins are obscene, and as >>>>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>>>>> points out, there are enough people in the emerging world to pay >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> bulk of the production (not only the M series but the S series as >>>>>>>>> well). >>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>> is not dissimilar to what the Bordeaux market has gone through in >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> last >>>>>>>>> few years, and what the Burgundy market is going through now - >>>>>>>>> though I >>>>>>>>> believe that over 50% of the bottles sold in China are fakes, >>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> all such markets, the labels matter (Mojo), not the intrinsic >>>>>>>>> quality. >>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>> will be interesting to see what will happen to Leica as growth in >>>>>>>>> China >>>>>>>>> keeps slowing down, as is bound to happen. Remember, this will >>>>>>>>> shaft >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> Russian market as well, because energy prices would nosedive. As >>>>>>>>> far >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> can see, they have alienated most of their traditional clientele, >>>>>>>>> bar a >>>>>>>>> few, and I wonder where they would go to make up the volumes. They >>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>> not have a diversified enough customer base to withstand a big >>>>>>>>> topline >>>>>>>> hit. >>>>>>>>> It is going to be interesting. The best thing for all of us would >>>>>>>>> be if >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>> those unused Leicas in China come on the used market at the same >>>>>>>>> time, >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> herd behaviour takes hold, and cause a glut there. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would look to a Leica IPO for Blackstone and Kaufmann to cash >>>>>>>>> out >>>>>>>> sooner >>>>>>>>> rather than later, if growth in China keeps drifting down. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jayanand, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> jewelry for rich clients who don't use it, or who use it with >>>>>>>> minimal >>>>>>>> knowledge of its qualities and capabilities, makes the future sound >>>>>>>> rather >>>>>>>> ominous. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What does this model predict in terms of future optical quality? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>>> Jayanand >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Nathan Wajsman >>>>>>>>> <photo at frozenlight.eu >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Right. So Leica has made a strategic shift from the photography >>>>>>>>>> business >>>>>>>>>> to the jewelry business. Fair enough, the Blackstone people >>>>>>>>>> obviously >>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>> where the money is. But then they should be up front about it so >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> photography dealers can switch their focus to companies that >>>>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> interested in supplying photographers. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> Nathan >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Nathan Wajsman >>>>>>>>>> Alicante, Spain >>>>>>>>>> http://www.frozenlight.eu >>>>>>>>>> http://www.greatpix.eu >>>>>>>>>> PICTURE OF THE WEEK: http://www.fotocycle.dk/paws >>>>>>>>>> Blog: http://nathansmusings.wordpress.com/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> YNWA >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On May 25, 2013, at 2:28 PM, Joseph Yao wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Leica have been shipping sufficient quantities of the new M240. >>>>>>>>>>> They >>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>>> not have been sending them to their 'traditional' markets where >>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>> profit >>>>>>>>>>> margins are lower. You will see plenty of M240 in, for example, >>>>>>>> Beijing >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> Shanghai, where the going rate for one is US$12,000 to >>>>>>>>>>> US$13,000. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> A handful of limited production silver chrome MM have been made >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> Chinese market, and available at RMB 1,581,000 each, approx. >>>>>>>> US$258,280. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more >>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more >>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more >>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Leica Users Group. >>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Leica Users Group. >>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > > > > -- > Mark William Rabiner > Photography > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/lugalrabs/ > > > >