Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2012/09/01
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]How many shots per minute can you get with an M9? Mark William Rabiner Photography http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/lugalrabs/ > From: "Henning J. Wulff" <henningw at archiphoto.com> > Reply-To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org> > Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 23:17:15 -0700 > To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org> > Subject: Re: [Leica] Monochrome II and III > > > On 2012-08-31, at 2:54 PM, Geoff Hopkinson wrote: > >> Hi Henning. I think it is well recognised that the M9 is not a fast >> operating camera regarding processing times and frame rate. Those >> limitations apply whether shooting uncompressed or compressed DNG or JPG >> or >> a combination. If you need more than those seven frames at half second >> intervals it is always going to stutter and hold you up. The Monochrom is >> the same but adds a killer capability for purists of course. >> >> .I've always considered my M9 as a basic but very compact full frame >> digital vehicle for the lenses. It is the wrong or at least not ideal tool >> for some photography types. I sold one M lens (for a bit more than I paid) >> and got a dSLR and a dedicated lens or three to start learning some >> fashion/action/macro/wildlife stuff too. >> >> A while back Stefan Daniel explained that the M9 design was the lowest >> cost >> design that they could manage for a 'full frame' at the time and it used >> as >> many M8 components as possible. At the time of the M9 genesis the S system >> was being developed too and they admitted they they did not have the >> capacity nor funds for two major in-house projects simultaneously, hence >> the M9 being lowest risk design with as much M8 recycled as they could >> manage. >> >> In the case of the processor they used two instead of one but the amount >> of >> data is much larger of course. At least partly due to the degree of >> success >> of the M9 (and now the Blackstone partnership) their budget for >> development >> has presumably improved since and they have previously said that they >> intended to use the 'Maestro' processor (developed for the S2) in future >> cameras. I would be surprised if the M10 does not use that and be more >> responsive. However when that camera will materialise is not known despite >> speculation. I suspect that will not be at this Photokina but we will see >> another big development or two. Not long until we find out. >> > The processor and implementations issues have been known and are very > obvious > in use. The issue isn't needing more than 2 frames a second, it's waiting > over > half a minute (at best) to clear the buffer of those seven shots. Half a > minute, or actually 40 seconds, can be a lifetime when photographing > events. > > As far as I know the M10 will be announced at Photokina (probably Sept. 17) > and delivery will start approximately April. Seems reasonable. With the > dicounts and the general timeframe and product life of the M9, anything > else > would be bad. > > >> On the battery capacity/design, I think the camera form factor is one of >> the limitations. I don't see how anything physically larger could be used. >> Whether that form factor will be/should be different in some future design >> is probably several discussions on their own. You noted how you would >> prefer that a future design get smaller again too. >> > The electronics in the M9 are clunky and take up way more space than they > should in a modern design. With a bit more LSI circuits a lot of space > could > be saved as well as lower power requirements would prevail. I haven't > desinged > this sort of stuff for decades, but the principles and the ongoing > development > is still the same. Space for a larger battery could be found, even in a > smaller body, and the design could be more energy efficient even if > liveview > was implemented. Just depends on the resources available and the electronic > partners they have. The S2 is out the door; the M9 has made a lot of money > for > them - it's time to give the M10 the attention it deserves. > > Henning > > > >> For comparison I'm looking at the Li-ion batteries from the Nikon D7000 >> next to the M8/M9 one. The Nikon one is 7V 1900mAh 14Wh and the Leica 3.7V >> 1800mAh 6.7Wh. No contest! But you physically could not fit it within the >> M9 body. Tiny production numbers mean less options and higher costs too of >> course. >> >> I'm sure that I will be lining up for the M10 whatever it looks like and >> whenever it appears providing it uses my lenses and the M still stands for >> Messsucher ;-) Let's see what happens. >> >> Cheers, >> Geoff >> http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman >> >> >> >> On 1 September 2012 04:23, Henning Wulff <henningw at archiphoto.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Frank, >>> >>> There may be a bit of that, but faster processors do not necessarily use >>> more battery power, and on top of that the electronics are hardly >>> packaged >>> in a modern, efficient way in the M9. I think it might well be possible >>> to >>> have more efficient (less power hungry, faster and more capable >>> electronics) AND a larger battery in the M10. One can hope. >>> >>> Henning >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2012-08-31, at 3:27 AM, FRANK DERNIE wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Henning, >>>> I can't help feeling that all of the performance enhancements you would >>> like will (much?) need more battery capacity since they all look like >>> shortcomings due to trying to keep the battery as small as possible, >>> which >>> would inevitably lead to the camera having to be bigger and heavier. The >>> M9 >>> body volume is a tiny fraction of the volume of any digital camera of >>> anything like comparable performance... >>>> Frank >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: Henning Wulff <henningw at archiphoto.com> >>>>> To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org> >>>>> Sent: Friday, 31 August 2012, 0:28 >>>>> Subject: Re: [Leica] Monochrome II and III >>>>> >>>>> Mainly, and desparately needed: - these are the issues that are in fact >>> holding me off ordering an MM immediately - >>>>> Better buffer and image writing to card; faster display with zoom on >>> LCD; better LCD so that you can judge your image better, should you >>> choose >>> to do so. Basically the electronics need to be up to the rest of the >>> camera. If it can't do more than 2 frames per second, that's OK. What I >>> don't like is having to wait for the camera. Ever. I don't with any other >>> camera I now use, unless it's a P&S. I don't know if the production >>> firmware allows for compressed DNG's, but uncompressed DNG's on the M9 >>> are >>> largely a waste of time and space as I have never been able to discern a >>> difference in final output between uncompressed and compressed. If the >>> electronics are up to dealing with the large files in a transparently >>> speedy fashion, this becomes somewhat less of an issue. The file writing >>> of >>> the M9 with compressed is slow enough as it is; it doesn't need to be >>> slowed additionally by not allowing a compressed format. Maybe there is a >>> difference other than >>>> theoretical between compressed a >>>>> nd uncompressed on the MM, if it is available there or tested initially >>> by Leica. >>>>> >>>>> In the 'Not so important but I'd like...' category:I'd also like the >>> camera to get back to the size the pre-M8's were. I know that is >>> difficult >>> with the LCD screen requirements but I could better live with a deeper >>> mount flange than the body thickness. Better battery and battery life. >>> I'd >>> prefer not having to remove the base and finding a place to put it to >>> change batteries and cards. I also liked the minimal info display on the >>> top panel of the M8; even a bit more would be welcome. >>>>> >>>>> Henning >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2012-08-30, at 12:36 PM, John McMaster wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> What do you think needs improved for the II and III? >>>>>> >>>>>> ;-) john >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> >>>>>> I can hardly wait until the Monochrome II and then III are released. >>>>>> The improvements will be greatly welcome. >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe we'll see a Fuji Monochrome in the near future, or an Olympus >>> OMD-B&W. Digital altnernatives busting out all over. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers--Doug >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Henning Wulff >>>>> henningw at archiphoto.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Leica Users Group. >>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Leica Users Group. >>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>>> >>> >>> >>> Henning Wulff >>> henningw at archiphoto.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Leica Users Group. >>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> > > > Henning Wulff > henningw at archiphoto.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information