[Leica] Women

[rgacpa at yahoo.com (Bob Adler)]

I don't like limits and definitions put on what is or is not.
Art can lend dignity and beauty where others see none or vice versa.
There should be no fences IMO.
Best,
Bob

 Bob Adler
Palo Alto, CA
http://www.raflexions.com




________________________________
From: Jayanand Govindaraj <jayanand at gmail.com>
To: Leica Users Group <lug at leica-users.org>
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 7:42:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Leica] Women

Let every one use his own judgment - culture differs from country to
country. I for one refuse to take photographs of the very poor, homeless,
street dwellers, slum dwellers, beggars, etc which is a staple of every
visitor to the third world, and it leaves me angry that you take advantage
of people who cannot fight back, and strip them of what little dignity they
possess. To me that is much worse than a woman's bottom.
Cheers
Jayanand

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Philip F <photo.forrest at 
earthlink.net>wrote:

> Let me preface this with the statement that I'm not trying to be hurtful at
> all. Just posing some questions to the list about "proper" "street
> photography" and were we all draw the line between art, documentation and
> objectification.
>
> I've mentioned this before on the LUG with it only to be swept aside
> quickly but didn't have my questions answered then and still I'm not having
> my questions answered now. so at the risk of castigating myself among this
> community I pose the question: "If were to take a photo of a woman's bottom
> with my Leica is it street photography?" Further: "If I were to ask that
> woman before I took the photo if i could do so, would she allow me?" 
> Further
> still: "If I took the photo with my nearly silent digital rangefinder THEN
> told her and showed her the photo, would she approve or would I get
> slapped/arrested/have my camera confiscated or destroyed?"
> Yes, i am aware that I'm asking questions of morality based upon my own
> beliefs and as much as I don't want to impress them upon anyone else, i
> strongly believe that photographers all over the world have a duty to be
> respectful in their work and respectful towards other people. I may be
> guilty of this in some very few instances but I also don't want to be
> complicit in this behavior and further validate it. The taking of photos in
> this manner actually does harm to the rights of photographers around the
> world. Making the case that this is not a social more or convention in 
> other
> countries only serves to prove that objectification in those places is the
> norm and is acceptable.
> As English is the language of the LUG, the very nature of calling them
> "senoritas" takes away from them being women. it makes them "other" and as
> such more acceptable to objectify. It is a long established tactic of
> distancing the subject of conversation to create an other and feeds sexism,
> racism and all those other traits which we claim to be making our way past
> in the 21st century. It's a way to make her not a woman but an acceptable
> object. If there were more women on the LUG would we see as much of this?
> Would it be as accepted? If the language of the LUG were Spanish would it 
> be
> as accepted?
> Its objectification is what it is. Sorry, but the few years I've been here
> on the the LUG I've seen my fair share of very non-interactive photos from
> afar with the celebrated 85mm Sonnar or 90mm whatnot. Who are we kidding
> when talking about the "low contrast" or bokeh or whatever smokescreen we
> all put up to allow ourselves to gaze without guilt or shame on a blatant
> photo of a woman's ass? I don't want to be pushing my morals on people but
> this is not photojournalism or street photography or whatever you want to
> call it. Its borderline lecherous subversive image capture is what it is.
> All the talk of subtle tones and resolution and all that jazz are just up
> there to make us feel less dirty in our own viewing of the photo. Sometimes
> when I take/took photos of that part of women, they have often been tied up
> & suspended completely nude or almost so, but knew that I was there, hired
> to make those photos. There was a sort of pact of personal integrity and
> each other's morals th
>  at the model and I had between each other. In spite of the release form
> and legal documents, if I were to make any of them uncomfortable for any
> reason, I'm out of there. This street photography is not ironic or cheeky 
> or
> academic or making some statement other than a woman has a nice bottom.
> That's just not the best way to pursue street photography if you were to 
> ask
> me.
> I'm disappointed in what this esteemed community finds acceptable and while
> I'll not quit the list, I'll not  be complicit either.
> Again, I'm not out to hurt anyone. Just to maybe open some eyes to what I
> view as photographic hypocrisy and lack of respect.
> Phil Forrest
>
>
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>

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