Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2009/07/01

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Subject: [Leica] Why Leicas with Nazi symbols should be trashed,
From: jayanand at gmail.com (Jayanand Govindaraj)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 21:55:03 +0530
References: <2c7d94625a71371d4a1dc391cef20666@cshore.com> <3cad89990906302025l312501dfke6e055c1f0c12214@mail.gmail.com> <FFC88D74-1735-4222-B238-ADEABCDFB211@gmail.com>

Kevin,
I forgot to add - I would like that "starting point" bibliography...
Cheers
Jayanand

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 10:42 AM, K Landdeck <bamboozld at gmail.com> wrote:

> Long-time lurker, first time poster ... so I hope this isn't too abrupt of
> a first-post, especially as it's partially OT. :-)
>
> As a historian of modern China finishing my dissertation at UCB, I have to
> chime in and say that the often invoked Mao example when talking about Nazi
> atrocities is based almost entirely on misconceptions and misinformation.
>
> The people who died under Mao were almost all the result of misguided
> policies (economic and political) in the context of a very complex 
> political
> situation.  To put it in the same terms as the holocaust and Hitler's
> military aggression in Europe is to completely obscure the distinction
> between deliberate attempts at extermination and poor policy-making, 
> between
> intention and unintended consequences, as well as to misread the actual
> operation of power in communist China when compared to the Nazi
> dictatorship.  Mao was rarely in control of his own party, nor even fully
> informed as to the conditions in the countryside that led to the famine and
> death tolls in the Great Leap Forward and the violence in the Cultural
> Revolution.  Whatever his follies, mistakes, and lust for personal power,
> Mao was not a monster out to exterminate millions of people.  Rhetorically
> it sounds good, but it does violence to historical understanding to imply
> that the actions and motivations of Mao and the CCP/PRC were analogous to
> Hitler's and the Nazi Party/Government.
>
> I would be happy to supply a "starting point" bibliography for anyone who
> would actually take the time to read some well researched analyses of the
> GLF and GPCR, instead of just spouting "common knowledge", which is common
> mainly in the sense of being based on very superficial, and often outright
> wrong, information.  (Sadly, the state of education on China is abysmal in
> most of the world and as a result such sloppy comparisons between 
> Hitler-Mao
> or Stalin-Mao are made often, even in places like the NYT and other venues
> that should have better research staffs).
>
> The larger point Jayanand is trying to make, however, I agree with.  As a
> historian (again), I find it painful to see anyone advocating the
> destruction of  historical traces just because they have negative
> associations as it only hastens historical amnesia.   This seems especially
> dangerous because we selectively ignore all sorts of other items that are
> blotted with their past on a daily basis: are all people who collect 
> Vietnam
> era memorabilia suspect because of, and complicit with, the napalming of
> Vietnamese villages carried out by the US Air Force?  How about WW2 era
> items from the US bombing command, since they deliberately firebombed
> Japanese cities killing tens of thousands of civilians, even children?  If
> my grandfather was involved in those raids and I wanted to collect a bomber
> captain's pistol would that make me complicit in those actions?  How about
> the virtual extermination of native Americans in California (which also had
> a death toll in the millions)?  Anyone who collects items from this segment
> of the past is morally suspect?  Where does this end?
>
> I find it ironic that one of the most misguided policies of the Cultural
> Revolution was precisely the same kind of judging of people's motives for
> having possessions as I see in this discussion: having bourgeois items (or
> even things produced by a capitalist country) meant, a priori, one was a
> capitalist and hence discriminated against.
>
> And then, it seems to me that there are plenty of far more pressing issues
> (some mentioned by Jayanand) involving real tyranny and oppression today
> that we can be outraged over, rather than a few cameras with a swastika on
> them from half a century ago.
>
> To keep this somewhat photography related: I do have a small gallery on the
> LUG site that I am slowly adding to.  It's mainly conventional street stuff
> shot on film with an M4 (and a mix of Zeiss/CV/Canon glass) here in San
> Francisco.  :-)    http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/shudaizi/
>
>
> respectfully (from a LUG newb),
>
> Kevin Landdeck
>
> =============
> Only connect.
> =============
> bamboozld at gmail.com
>
> shudaizi photography:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/shudaizi/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 30, 2009, at 8:25 PM, Jayanand Govindaraj wrote:
>
>  Douglas,
>> I am sure that an ordinary Hindu would not mind carrying a camera with a
>> swastika at all - in all probability, he will be totally ignorant of the
>> Nazi connection. There are a lot of Hindus, Buddhists and Jains in the
>> world!
>>
>> Its all a question of the winners who write history and influence the
>> thinking of the succeeding generations - the 'good' guys and the 'bad'
>> guys
>> is only your point of view, it is seldom very clear cut, except to a
>> propaganda machine. Mao killed a lot more of his citizens than Hitler did,
>> but none of us think twice about buying Chinese made goods, essentially
>> made
>> under the same regime. Don't you have the same revulsion when you walk
>> into
>> Wal Mart?
>>
>> Multinational firms have traditionally been remarkably free of ethical
>> considerations relative to the boss' bonus, i.e. the bottom line. A lot of
>> the consumer items you buy have been made in Gulag like working conditions
>> all over the world. There are companies who have marketed infant food in
>> Asia & Africa that had been banned in Europe and the USA. Food grains are
>> destroyed and burnt to keep prices up for farmers, rather than send it
>> free
>> to the hungry all over the world.  Is that not revolting? Will you boycott
>> such companies/regimes? Or just pay lip service?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Jayanand
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Douglas Nygren <dnygr at cshore.com> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>  In an age when people wear labels as if they were branded, why would any
>>> sane person want to be seen holding a camera with a Swaktika on it?
>>>
>>> These cameras are damaged goods pure and simple. It's not the cameras'
>>> fault. Cameras made at the same time but do not bear bear the Swastika
>>> don't
>>> bear the burden of the symbol as much.
>>>
>>> Doug
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


Replies: Reply from tedgrant at shaw.ca (Ted Grant) ([Leica] Why Leicas with Nazi symbols should be trashed,)
In reply to: Message from dnygr at cshore.com (Douglas Nygren) ([Leica] Why Leicas with Nazi symbols should be trashed,)
Message from jayanand at gmail.com (Jayanand Govindaraj) ([Leica] Why Leicas with Nazi symbols should be trashed,)
Message from bamboozld at gmail.com (K Landdeck) ([Leica] Why Leicas with Nazi symbols should be trashed,)