Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2009/07/01

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Subject: [Leica] Why Leicas with Nazi symbols should be trashed,
From: jhnichols at lighttube.net (Jim Nichols)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:08:05 -0500
References: <2c7d94625a71371d4a1dc391cef20666@cshore.com><3cad89990906302025l312501dfke6e055c1f0c12214@mail.gmail.com> <FFC88D74-1735-4222-B238-ADEABCDFB211@gmail.com>

Kevin,

I won't comment on the main topic, but would like to compliment you on your 
gallery postings. You have a very good eye and your handling of B&W images 
is excellent.
Thanks for sharing them.

Jim Nichols
Tullahoma, TN USA
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "K Landdeck" <bamboozld at gmail.com>
To: "Leica Users Group" <lug at leica-users.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Leica] Why Leicas with Nazi symbols should be trashed,


> Long-time lurker, first time poster ... so I hope this isn't too  abrupt 
> of a first-post, especially as it's partially OT. :-)
>
> As a historian of modern China finishing my dissertation at UCB, I  have 
> to chime in and say that the often invoked Mao example when  talking about 
> Nazi atrocities is based almost entirely on  misconceptions and 
> misinformation.
>
> The people who died under Mao were almost all the result of misguided 
> policies (economic and political) in the context of a very complex 
> political situation.  To put it in the same terms as the holocaust and 
> Hitler's military aggression in Europe is to completely obscure the 
> distinction between deliberate attempts at extermination and poor 
> policy-making, between intention and unintended consequences, as well  as 
> to misread the actual operation of power in communist China when  compared 
> to the Nazi dictatorship.  Mao was rarely in control of his  own party, 
> nor even fully informed as to the conditions in the  countryside that led 
> to the famine and death tolls in the Great Leap  Forward and the violence 
> in the Cultural Revolution.  Whatever his  follies, mistakes, and lust for 
> personal power, Mao was not a monster  out to exterminate millions of 
> people.  Rhetorically it sounds good,  but it does violence to historical 
> understanding to imply that the  actions and motivations of Mao and the 
> CCP/PRC were analogous to  Hitler's and the Nazi Party/Government.
>
> I would be happy to supply a "starting point" bibliography for anyone  who 
> would actually take the time to read some well researched analyses  of the 
> GLF and GPCR, instead of just spouting "common knowledge",  which is 
> common mainly in the sense of being based on very  superficial, and often 
> outright wrong, information.  (Sadly, the state  of education on China is 
> abysmal in most of the world and as a result  such sloppy comparisons 
> between Hitler-Mao or Stalin-Mao are made  often, even in places like the 
> NYT and other venues that should have  better research staffs).
>
> The larger point Jayanand is trying to make, however, I agree with.   As a 
> historian (again), I find it painful to see anyone advocating the 
> destruction of  historical traces just because they have negative 
> associations as it only hastens historical amnesia.   This seems 
> especially dangerous because we selectively ignore all sorts of other 
> items that are blotted with their past on a daily basis: are all  people 
> who collect Vietnam era memorabilia suspect because of, and  complicit 
> with, the napalming of Vietnamese villages carried out by  the US Air 
> Force?  How about WW2 era items from the US bombing  command, since they 
> deliberately firebombed Japanese cities killing  tens of thousands of 
> civilians, even children?  If my grandfather was  involved in those raids 
> and I wanted to collect a bomber captain's  pistol would that make me 
> complicit in those actions?  How about the  virtual extermination of 
> native Americans in California (which also  had a death toll in the 
> millions)?  Anyone who collects items from  this segment of the past is 
> morally suspect?  Where does this end?
>
> I find it ironic that one of the most misguided policies of the  Cultural 
> Revolution was precisely the same kind of judging of people's  motives for 
> having possessions as I see in this discussion: having  bourgeois items 
> (or even things produced by a capitalist country)  meant, a priori, one 
> was a capitalist and hence discriminated against.
>
> And then, it seems to me that there are plenty of far more pressing 
> issues (some mentioned by Jayanand) involving real tyranny and  oppression 
> today that we can be outraged over, rather than a few  cameras with a 
> swastika on them from half a century ago.
>
> To keep this somewhat photography related: I do have a small gallery  on 
> the LUG site that I am slowly adding to.  It's mainly conventional  street 
> stuff shot on film with an M4 (and a mix of Zeiss/CV/Canon  glass) here in 
> San Francisco.  :-)    http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/shudaizi/
>
>
> respectfully (from a LUG newb),
>
> Kevin Landdeck
>
> =============
> Only connect.
> =============
> bamboozld at gmail.com
>
> shudaizi photography:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/shudaizi/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 30, 2009, at 8:25 PM, Jayanand Govindaraj wrote:
>
>> Douglas,
>> I am sure that an ordinary Hindu would not mind carrying a camera  with a
>> swastika at all - in all probability, he will be totally ignorant of  the
>> Nazi connection. There are a lot of Hindus, Buddhists and Jains in the
>> world!
>>
>> Its all a question of the winners who write history and influence the
>> thinking of the succeeding generations - the 'good' guys and the  'bad' 
>> guys
>> is only your point of view, it is seldom very clear cut, except to a
>> propaganda machine. Mao killed a lot more of his citizens than  Hitler 
>> did,
>> but none of us think twice about buying Chinese made goods,  essentially 
>> made
>> under the same regime. Don't you have the same revulsion when you  walk 
>> into
>> Wal Mart?
>>
>> Multinational firms have traditionally been remarkably free of ethical
>> considerations relative to the boss' bonus, i.e. the bottom line. A  lot 
>> of
>> the consumer items you buy have been made in Gulag like working 
>> conditions
>> all over the world. There are companies who have marketed infant  food in
>> Asia & Africa that had been banned in Europe and the USA. Food  grains 
>> are
>> destroyed and burnt to keep prices up for farmers, rather than send  it 
>> free
>> to the hungry all over the world.  Is that not revolting? Will you 
>> boycott
>> such companies/regimes? Or just pay lip service?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Jayanand
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Douglas Nygren <dnygr at cshore.com>  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In an age when people wear labels as if they were branded, why  would 
>>> any
>>> sane person want to be seen holding a camera with a Swaktika on it?
>>>
>>> These cameras are damaged goods pure and simple. It's not the  cameras'
>>> fault. Cameras made at the same time but do not bear bear the  Swastika 
>>> don't
>>> bear the burden of the symbol as much.
>>>
>>> Doug
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>
> 




Replies: Reply from imagist3 at mac.com (George Lottermoser) ([Leica] Why Leicas with Nazi symbols should be trashed,)
Reply from bamboozld at gmail.com (K Landdeck) ([Leica] Why Leicas with Nazi symbols should be trashed,)
In reply to: Message from dnygr at cshore.com (Douglas Nygren) ([Leica] Why Leicas with Nazi symbols should be trashed,)
Message from jayanand at gmail.com (Jayanand Govindaraj) ([Leica] Why Leicas with Nazi symbols should be trashed,)
Message from bamboozld at gmail.com (K Landdeck) ([Leica] Why Leicas with Nazi symbols should be trashed,)