Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2007/01/15

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Subject: [Leica] There's something about German design / misprint
From: douglas.sharp at gmx.de (Douglas Sharp)
Date: Mon Jan 15 02:35:17 2007
References: <200701150418.l0F4IlM8086419@server1.waverley.reid.org> <315738.85149.qm@web90412.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200701150654.l0F6svXV004648@server1.waverley.reid.org> <45AB5497.2010403@gmx.de>

That should of course be HVSS not HVVS

Douglas Sharp wrote:
> The Germans had plenty of time to develop their tanks before WWII 
> started - if you look at what the allies had when it started, there 
> were only light tanks such as the US M2 and medium tanks such as the 
> British Valentine, and the Poles met the first German tank incursions 
> with cavalry and tin-pot Vickers light tanks. The French had machines 
> like the Renault FT-17 and the Char B1 bis that were still straight 
> out of WWI.
>
> The Sherman was indeed an excellent development, even better when 
> up-armoured and with HVVS suspension, although the US turret guns left 
> quite a bit to be desired, hence the Australian Firefly version and 
> the British development of the M7 HMC (Priest) as the Sexton using the 
> superb 25-pounder. The later US 105mm gun was a definite improvement 
> over the 75mm.
> The British stayed in this WW I design rut for a long time, and 
> carried on building complex (and slow) machines like the A22 Churchill 
> and various Cruiser (e.g. Covenanter) and so-called infantry tanks 
> (e.g. Churchill), before building the  successful cruisers, Cromwells 
> and Crusaders, culminating in the  A34 Comet which was considered to 
> be on a par with the Panther, ,but saw little service. It was at least 
> stationed in post-war Berlin before the Centurions (probably the first 
> true MBT) were introduced.
>
> The Sherman variants were very good throughout WWII and later they 
> even became a mainstay of Israeli forces until the decision was taken 
> to replace them with   British Centurion (later locally modified as 
> the Ben Gurion) and US Patton tanks - before they started building 
> their tanks
>> from scratch - and very successfully too (Merkava). 
> Even the German post-war Bundeswehr was equipped with a number of M7 
> HMCs (Sherman based self-propelled guns) as a part of their first 
> armoured division equipment.
>
> Heavy tanks, in the same class as the Tiger  I and K?nigstiger (Tiger 
> II) were not introduced in the allies until the very last days of 
> WWII, e.g. the Centurion. Motorised allied heavy artillery in the form 
> of the M-40 on an HVVS suspension (very late, if at all used in combat 
> - reports differ ) and the M12, mounting 155mm or an 8-inch naval gun 
> on a M4 chassis, played only a very limited role towards the end of 
> the war - e.g. the attack on Cologne.
>
> The Black Prince heavy tank (A43 Super-Churchill) and the A39 Tortoise 
> heavy assault tank more or less died on the drawing boards of the 
> British army.
> The US Army started to develop tanks to follow the Sherman (M4) under 
> the name of T20 to T23 and actually built two prototypes of the 
> T28/T95, a strange double tracked 85 or 95-ton beast with a low slung 
> turretless gun (assault tank or tank destroyer). These projects were 
> all discontinued before entering production.
>
> On the basis of the number of variants, the German Panzer III and 
> Panzer IV could possibly be seen as  equivalents to the Sherman, fast 
> to produce, reasonably simple to service and quite reliable. The true 
> masters of the heavy tanks and SPGs  were the Soviets, the simplicity 
> of their suspension (only a few were built with Christie type chassis 
> - which the British loved) was built on years of success with tracked 
> agricultural tractors for the worst terrains and weather conditions 
> imaginable. The Russians were also quite well up on German tank 
> developments - during the Hitler-Stalin Pact years they had more than 
> enough opportunity to see what the Germans were doing right - and wrong.
>
> Douglas
>
> Marc James Small wrote:
>> At 12:33 AM 1/15/2007, Bill Smith wrote:
>> >Marc:
>> >
>> >  Obviously you are more informed about this subject than me--thanks
>> >for your comments. About all I know is what I see on The Discovery
>> >Channel. They've pointed out the complexities of the Tiger tank and as
>> >I recall the 88mm howitzer as opposed to the simple (but deadly to the
>> >crew) Sherman and 105mm field howitzer.
>> >
>> >  Their parts supply/ maintenace problems they had remind me of the 9
>> >miserable years I owned a 1971 BMW 2002.
>>
>>
>> The M4 Sherman has received a lot of hostility
>>> from the Disdain and Hysteria Channels in recent 
>> years but this is undeserved.  It was a solid vehicle capable of 
>> solid work.  Sure, it had limitations but one part of doctrine is to 
>> teach soldiers how to make the best of their gear and, in the end, 
>> the Sherman turned into a real workhorse which effectively crushed 
>> German armor by early 1945.
>>
>>
>>
>> Marc
>>
>>
>> msmall@aya.yale.edu
>> Cha robh b?s fir gun ghr?s fir!
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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In reply to: Message from marcsmall at comcast.net (Marc James Small) ([Leica] There's something about German design ...)
Message from wrs111445 at yahoo.com (Bill Smith) ([Leica] There's something about German design ...)
Message from marcsmall at comcast.net (Marc James Small) ([Leica] There's something about German design ...)
Message from douglas.sharp at gmx.de (Douglas Sharp) ([Leica] There's something about German design ...)