Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2006/11/17
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]i think one of the biggest problem with leica digital experience, is working with two different companies to do two different cameras, the DMR was done with imacon, a company who was well versed in digital and i think, they kept leica in the dark and sort handed over a black box to them for testing, this one leica was more involved and not having the experience and what market would except plus a very bad roll out, has caused both leica and us a lot of grief. it is obvious the it is a great beginning but not ready for prime time, having said that, i will hold on to my m8 as is (now that i have hot filters, thanks tony rose) and might even get another one to send to leica for the fixes one at time so that i have always one with me. i am upset at leica but not at M8. it would be interesting to find out who was their partner in this venture On 11/17/06, Alastair Firkin <firkin@ncable.net.au> wrote: > I have had the M8 for 19 hours (including one sleep, while the > battery recharged) and I can report that at this stage -- > > "Don't worry: be happy" > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > L1000011.JPG.html > > "Happy loving couples make it look so easy" > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > L1000068.jpg.html > > When I turned 40, Helen surprised me with an M6, a decade later, I've > just bought my first pair of reading glasses and Helen has bought me > an M8. So here are some impressions from day one. Firstly, thank you > to Helen and the guys at camera exchange. It has been a pleasure > dealing with you for over 20 years. Its only a shame the shop is so > busy ;-) > > Thanks to the warnings of others, I had the the battery charged > before I arrived, so I was ready to experiment as soon as it was > loaded in the quirky "chamber". > > If you just want the results, here's an album: > > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/Images+from+the+M8/ > > But to read some comments, please continue > > "So take a letter Maria" > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > 028.JPG.html > > Point One: Leica should be congratulated on this camera. Even with > the undoubted shortcomings, and I will show some of my examples > later, this is the first generation of a high quality rangefinder > digital camera and most of what they have done seems to work. Leica > rely on third parties for the sensor, and will NEVER in my life time > be likely to do otherwise. Leica do not have the cash flows of Canon > and do not have the experience in digital photography: lets be > honest, no one has the grunt or experience that Canon have, BUT Canon > do not make a rangefinder camera, so it is really pretty pointless > making too many comparisons with Canon SLRs, except to hold them up > as today's gold standards. > > It is a long way from: > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/Leica-Product/ > product001.jpg.html > > In my opinion based on a days use (big deal I know) Leica have made > some good progress. The camera is "faster" than the DMR, the software > seems a little more refined (my experience with the DMR is also > limited so this is just a gut feeling), the files come up faster, > write to the card faster and are smaller. They download faster to the > computer as a result and I only needed to buy a 2 gig card to hold > close to 200 images. > > Then there is the underlying reason many of us will buy the M8. We > want to use our M lenses and we like using rangefinder cameras. I > suspect we are using the M lenses but not to their fullest extent > (even though Leica would like to tell us so), but the results are > really very satisfying in terms of Lens to Image translation. > > > Point Two: unlike Tina, I found the camera "flew" into action very > quickly. I focused on a table under very low light, kept watching > through the finder as I turned the camera "on" and then waited for > the camera to give me a shutter speed on "A" setting and fired ASAP. > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > 041.JPG.html > > Well I reckon that the image was shot in just under one second: I was > delighted. The camera also seems to fire up as quickly from "sleep". > So touching the shutter release, or swinging the camera to on as you > raise it to your eye will give the camera time to be ready to shoot. > > > Point three: shutter lag is not noticeable EXCEPT with TTL flash, > where the initial flash makes a delay that I could notice, and I > wondered if the dog's eyes were "blinking" by the time the shutter > and real flash fired. > > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > flash1.JPG.html > > I have not used it yet as fill flash with people, but the lag may > effect the result. > > "He ain't heavy, he's my brother" > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > 032.JPG.html > > My first impression was how small the battery was, how light, how > neat, no wonder you will have a limited battery life. Because the > battery is so small, it will be no effort to carry one or two spares, > and using a small battery has limited the weight and size of the > camera. Knowing that battery technology is improving, this may mean > our cameras or the next generation will have even better life, but I > managed to take a full 2 gig card, chimp through the images at the > restaurant 2 or 3 times and download to the computer before it died. > We are told it will get better, so i think it will be "good-enough" > if not excessive for a user like me. > > Then I un-wrapped the camera, and it is solid, well in fact it is > heavy, but apart from feeling like my M6 on steroids, the M digital > is as everyone else has reported, an M feeling camera. A few minor > lessons and within minutes I was shooting in "A" (aperture priority) > and "M" (manual, or as I have always thought of it shutter priority). > The viewfinder is bright, the rangefinder seems accurate and I was > even happy focusing the 135mm with it. I suppose I reached for the > winder on 2 or 3 occasions, but the "strange" feeling was that the > camera was living after each shot, as the motor recocked the shutter. > That and the noise were a little off-putting to a M user, but I soon > became used to it. > > "As tight as a dope fiend's fix my friend, step in close and take > your stuff" > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > tightas1.JPG.html > > It has never really bothered me that the framing in the M was a > little "loose". I've always done my own printing, I have great > enlargers and the quality of film was good enough to allow me a happy > "wastage", but I feel a bit different with digital (though I suppose > it will pass). Being as most of you know a bit "tight", I like to get > my value, and so if I've got 10.3 million pixels to use, I want to > use them all. Besides, the sensor real estate is expensive and > already crops my lenses back by 30%. I immediately noticed that the > "image verification" which hits the monitor with lightning speed > (except in very low light conditions such as leaving the mirror down > on the visoflex) was showing me a fair degree more than I had > expected. On my very crude test: focused at as close as I could get > to the figure the framing means I go from an image of 3900 x 2600 > Pixels to 3300 x 2100 (ok, I know I have not done this in perfect > ratio, but you get the idea) a loss of about 15%. So step in close > then take another step. > > So here is the result > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > tightas1.JPG.html > > And this is about the excess outside the framelines > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > tightas2.JPG.html > > "Dust clusters to me like moths around the flame" > > I was reasonably careful, I did not "inspect" the shutter and changed > lenses as swiftly as I could, The earliest image I kept - frame two, > seems free of dust, but by frame 7, it was there already. > > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > dust.JPG.html > > This dust problem must plague all non-self cleaning cameras and the > M8 is no different but cleaning the sensor is pretty easy. You need a > fairly fully charged battery before the camera will even let you do > it, but you switch to clean sensor in the menu, open the shutter and > blow away furiously with the rubber knob of the blower brush: > > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > deDusted.JPG.html > > the next day, I did this and could only find a couple of small > remnant specks, BUT this shows how idiotic some of our obsession with > pixel perfect really is, and again, makes me very impressed with the > Olympus E 500, who still has no sign of dust after hundreds of > "unprotected" lens changes. Of course the Olympus takes much longer > to start up!!!!. I would like an ultrasonic cleaning of the sensor at > the touch of a button "when I wanted it"!!! Seems dust is now my > enemy before I reach the darkroom. > > "Oh dear what can I do, baby's in black and she's turning blue" > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > bINb1.JPG.html > > The above image of black clad persons in sunshine, and below a group, > where I at first wondered if the T shirt on the girl in the > foreground was affected, till I spotted the black T shirt on the girl > behind: I think the colours are pretty good in these situations. > > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > bINb4.JPG.html > > So what of the famed "issues" which have already been discussed on > this forum and others. I reasoned that the infrared problem would be > worse at night. After all, there is less normal visible light and the > body may give off a greater percentage of IR. Well to some extent I > suspect it is true. Above are two images of people wearing black in > the sunlight, and I'm not sure how much effect there is, but at night > in the restaurant I took an image of the waitress who was in "black". > The first image is the camera's impression of the scene under > "tungsten" setting ISO 1250 > > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > bINb2.JPG.html > > and the second with PS's "auto-colour". Compared with the belt it > remains pretty "blue". > > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > bINb2a.JPG.html > > I'm pretty impressed with the high ISO performance, though I know the > Canons do it better, this is not too grubby compared with film!!! I > agree that Leica or Kodak or someone needs to find a reasonable > solution to this IR cast. If I am right and it becomes a real issue > in low light, then we will need to have hi-pass filters on our > Noctilux ;-) As Helen said: dark blue is NOT the new black. For me, > iffff it is an issue at high ISO and low light levels and I have to > put up with it, I'll live with it and try to remember to put a filter > on. > > "When everything old is new again" > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > Everythingold.JPG.html > > I have attached the visoflex and it works, but the shutter arm is on > the edge of the release, and you do need to give the camera time to > set the meter, so it did not work with the last instant mirror > release setting. You needed to raise the mirror slowly and then hit > the release. Of course I soon noticed that the framing was "off" > before realizing that the framing difference was the difference > between the 35mm film size and the sensor size. > > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > everythingold2.JPG.html > > So it was very late when we got home to feed the dogs ;-) > > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/M8+testing/ > availabledark1.JPG.html > > > Summary > The DMR is an interesting hybrid and has 2 possible big selling > points for longevity: > > 1) to replace the sensor, Leica could continue to develop the back > and I would not have to buy a new camera and > > 2) you can get to the sensor. I've already praised the Olympus dust > reduction on this list: it seems to work very well, but for how long. > Compared with cameras which rely on a return to the dealer for > cleaning, the DMR and now the M8 are streets ahead, especially if > like me you are planning on using them for 2 to 5 years. If > yesterdays experience is anything to go by, the camera would be > heading back to be cleaned DAILY. > > The colour problem needs to be solved: I may be able to live with it > using filters, as long as the situations in which the filters are > needed are predictable and few. It is the only real failing of the > camera so far in my testing. > > So here are a few other examples in one album > > http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/Alastair/album184/Images+from+the+M8/ > > Thanks for listening and happy shooting > > Cheers > Alastair > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > -- ------------------------------------- regards, mehrdad