[Leica] M8 and the Future

[bd at bdcolenphoto.com (B. D. Colen)]

It was a subscription-only site someone pointed me to - and let me into -
with an extremely extensive, two-part review by someone who is clearly an M
enthusiast, but noted the short comings. I don't have it book-marked, but am
trying to get the name of it.

As to the question of whether I think it will be a pro or an 'am' camera -
no, I don't think many will sell to working pros, although some undoubtedly
will. But we agree that most sales will be to enthusiasts. I think that if
it was weather sealed, and had really good high iso performance, even with
the 1.3 crop factor it would have a much bigger pro market.


On 10/26/06 5:39 PM, "G Hopkinson" <hoppyman@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> B.D., I follow your observations on this and would like to add some 
> questions
> and comments. 
> Where are the review images located that you have used to compare the high 
> ISO
> performance?
> I have only read reviews thus far based on pre-production examples. Those
> reviewers, quite properly, have refrained from posting
> images, commenting that the firmware is not the commercial release.
> Do you consider that pros will be the most significant market? I would have
> thought that they would sell in greater quantity to
> amateur enthusiasts, notwithstanding that a few pros may well buy them too.
> Finally I think that you have identified the most significant factor that 
> may
> disappoint current M owners, being the 1.33 extension
> factor (as christened by Leica). For wide users, it means that you must pay
> for and use a much bulkier 21mm or the new Tri design to
> approximate the FOV of the lovely 28's.
> Cheers
> Hoppy
> 
> l Message-----
> From: lug-bounces+hoppyman=bigpond.net.au@leica-users.org
> [mailto:lug-bounces+hoppyman=bigpond.net.au@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of
> B. D. Colen
> Sent: Friday, 27 October 2006 01:03
> To: Leica Users Group
> Subject: Re: [Leica] M8 and the Future
> 
> Not a point, Adam - merely an observation. The question is whether the
> demand, and the margin, will make up for the loss of demand and margin for
> film cameras. Remember that the company has been skittering on the edge of
> the abyss based on film camera sales. Doing better than barely surviving
> requires not only that the digital cameras sell well, but that they sell so
> well that the loss of film cameras isn't felt. (And one has to assume that
> there have been fairly large design and start -up costs associated with 
> this
> camera, costs that are absent from the film camera cost equation/)
> 
> Also, from the review images I've seen, there is not a hint that the camera
> produces images better than film at high isos - and its high iso images do
> not begin to touch those produced by the Canon 5D.
> 
> I'd suggest that the M8 clearly has three things going for it, which will
> make it appeal to the die-hard M base - It is clearly an extremely solidly
> built, very M-like, rangefinder digital. Beyond that, from a 
> pro-standpoint,
> it's mostly downhill - no real low-speed iso (160 is the lowest, apparently
> because Leica believes that the lower the starting iso, the harder it is to
> control noise at the high end of the scale); comparative very weak high iso
> performance; no weather or dust sealing; not full-frame, so the fabulous M
> lenses can't be used at their original focal lengths; odd and limited iso
> scale. All offered at a price that's $1500 higher than a film M for a 
> camera
> that simply will not have anything like the life expectancy of a film M.
> 
> But - with all that said, it's an M-like rangefinder that takes M lenses -
> and there's a great deal to be said for that.
> 
> B. D. 
> 
> 
> On 10/26/06 2:15 AM, "Adam Bridge" <abridge@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I'm not sure what your point is here, BD.
>> 
>> Or maybe I'm not sure what it means. Suppose Leica doesn't sell
>> another film camera and everyone only buys a DMR/R9 or an M8. If the
>> company can keep up with demand, and if the demand is equal to its
>> film cameras, then they have a winner as a company.
>> 
>> Of course I don't think this is what will happen. Film camera sales
>> will shrink as digital takes hold. Because it appears that the M8 is a
>> real winner - making images better than film can produce at high
>> speeds (over 800) - with excellent work-flow for both color and B&W
>> operation.
>> 
>> I think the loss of film could be a blessing to Leica. Not, of course
>> to those who want to shoot film but, as you point out, there will be
>> some real deals on film cameras.
>> 
>> Adam
>> 
>> On 10/25/06, B. D. Colen <bd@bdcolenphoto.com> wrote:
>>> The issue isn't just how many M8 bodies Leica will sell - and I'm going 
>>> to
>>> guess 2500-3000 the first year, and less in the second - but rather what 
>>> the
>>> release of the M8 will do to film camera sales. As we know, Leica is 
>>> barely
>>> afloat; the R8-9 has been a loss leader for some time, and the M6 and M7
>>> were steady, if modest, sellers. But with the introduction of the M8, one
>>> has to wonder if the sales of new M7s will dwindle to next to nothing,
>>> because people are unloading their film Ms at bargain prices to purchase
>>> M8s, making used cameras much more inviting than new ones. So it's 
>>> unlikely
>>> the M8 will really add to the Leica bottom line, as, 10 years ago, an
>>> entry-level M film body might have, but rather will drain film sales. Of
>>> course it may turn out that the company will succeed in developing a new,
>>> digital, business model which will revive it and keep it going. It's 
>>> going
>>> to be interesting to watch.
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
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