Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2006/03/21

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Subject: [Leica] Lets start a Leica equipment discussion
From: bdcolen at comcast.net (B. D. Colen)
Date: Tue Mar 21 11:10:15 2006

I think I've given up looking for purity. :-)


On 3/21/06 2:07 PM, "Daniel Ridings" <dlridings@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yeah, but he likes guns, BD. Let's not get too soft on him.
> 
> :-)
> 
> Daniel
> 
> On 3/21/06, B. D. Colen <bdcolen@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Walt, your kindness and generosity of spirit know no bounds
>> 
>> 
>> On 3/21/06 1:04 PM, "Walt Johnson" <walt@waltjohnson.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> B.D.:
>>> 
>>> Having survived the last few days of "mindless banter" (I did my share)
>>> here on the LUG taught me something. Just finished reading your last
>>> post and firmed up my otherwise flighty thoughts. You are one hell of a
>>> fine writer and have that gift you mentioned yourself. I only hope your
>>> students and those here will pay close attention.
>>> 
>>> Walt
>>> 
>>>> Hi, Barney - Of course I don't think that people shouldn't try. But try 
>>>> to
>>>> be what, and try what?
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, one has to be pretty hopeless in many ways not to be able to take a
>>>> "decent" photograph. But I firmly believe that to go much beyond that 
>>>> one
>>>> has to have some sort of inborn 'gift,' just as I believe that to be 
>>>> able
>>>> to
>>>> write well, play music well, paint well, one has to have a 'gift.' In
>>>> photography, that 'gift' is an 'eye ' - no, I can't define any of this.
>>>> 
>>>> No one I know of has HCB's 'eye.' So why try to be HCB? Study his work?
>>>> Absolutely. Try to figure out what it is about it that makes it so 
>>>> special?
>>>> Sure. Try to emulate that "specialness" in your own work? Sure. But 
>>>> given
>>>> that most people think of HCB as a 'photo journalist,' or a documentary
>>>> photographer, rather than as an 'art photographer,' how in (*)_*(_ are 
>>>> they
>>>> going to even attempt to emulate him? ;-) I know, for example, that many
>>>> people think very highly of HCB's portraits; I don't. I think that, as a
>>>> body work, they are - with a few very obvious examples - his weakest 
>>>> work.
>>>> Why? Because they required directly engaging with people, and I don't 
>>>> think
>>>> that people particularly interested old Henri - I think he was far more
>>>> interested in people's physical form, and the images he could create 
>>>> using
>>>> their forms as compositional elements.
>>>> 
>>>> I believe, that rather than trying to emulate our photographic 'heroes' 
>>>> -
>>>> and we all have them - we have to get them out of our heads so that we 
>>>> can,
>>>> as you so sagely observe, find our own voices.
>>>> 
>>>> But beyond all that, I made my first comment in response to what I few 
>>>> as
>>>> this nonsensical apparent belief that emulating HCB has something to do
>>>> with
>>>> equipment. Why is that nonsensical? Because if I believe that if he had
>>>> been
>>>> photographing during the last 20 years of his life, rather than drawing 
>>>> -
>>>> and what does that tell you? - HCB would have been photographing with 
>>>> the
>>>> latest M bodies and the latest Leica glass - and his images would have 
>>>> had
>>>> a
>>>> different look than his earlier images, shot with softer lenses, had.
>>>> 
>>>> Best
>>>> B. D.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 3/21/06 11:35 AM, "Barney Quinn" <bquinn@sgi.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> B.D.,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think that every artist - in any field - has to find his or her own
>>>>> voice,
>>>>> and I think that another way of thinking of learning to be a 
>>>>> photographer,
>>>>> a
>>>>> writer, a musician, or an artist is that it as a journey toward finding
>>>>> one's
>>>>> own voice. Learning to take pictures in the style of HCB, write music 
>>>>> in
>>>>> the
>>>>> style of Beethoven, or paint pictures that look like Monet is an useful
>>>>> part
>>>>> of the journey because it requires thinking about what you are 
>>>>> perceiving
>>>>> and
>>>>> then working out how to use the various technical things available to 
>>>>> you
>>>>> so
>>>>> that you can reproduce it. Beyond that I am wondering about the 
>>>>> creative
>>>>> value
>>>>> of imitating the work of a great master. Imitation may be the sincerest
>>>>> form
>>>>> of flattery, but HCB was already there and already did that.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think that in one sense you are exactly right. I play the cello in my
>>>>> secret
>>>>> life. To play like Yo-Yo Ma or Pierre Fournier or any master you should
>>>>> choose
>>>>> to name probably really does require both that you be born with some
>>>>> special
>>>>> gifts, start your education while still quite young, and that you 
>>>>> devote
>>>>> hours
>>>>> and hours and hours to learning your art. Fair enough. But, there's an
>>>>> exclusionary implication to this arguement which I also think needs to 
>>>>> be
>>>>> put
>>>>> on the table. That's this. The blunt truth is that most of us aren't 
>>>>> born
>>>>> with
>>>>> the gifts to be virtuosi in any field. But, that doesn't mean that one
>>>>> can't
>>>>> learn. There are very few tone deaf people. There are very few people 
>>>>> who,
>>>>> if
>>>>> they are motivated, can't learn to play the cello well enough to play 
>>>>> in a
>>>>> community orchestra, and there are some surprisingly good community
>>>>> orchestras
>>>>> around. There are very few people who, if they are willing to put in 
>>>>> the
>>>>> effort, can't learn to take decent photographs.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I know that you didn't say that people can't learn, and I know that you
>>>>> don't
>>>>> believe that. I just wanted to say that just because most of us aren't
>>>>> born
>>>>> with the special gifts of HCB doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. I am
>>>>> under
>>>>> no illusions about the absolute level of my abilities as either a 
>>>>> cellist
>>>>> or
>>>>> a
>>>>> photographer. But, I think that the arts are of vital importance. I 
>>>>> have
>>>>> no
>>>>> idea why. It's just what I think. And, I think that learning to take
>>>>> pictures,
>>>>> write, play, whatever, is a wonderful journey and I think that each 
>>>>> person
>>>>> who
>>>>> goes on that journey makes the world a better place in ways I cant'
>>>>> explain.
>>>>> And I definitly think that the world would be a much better place if 
>>>>> more
>>>>> people spent their time trying to learn to create rather then shooting 
>>>>> at
>>>>> each
>>>>> other.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sorry, just felt like posting something this morning,.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Barney
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> "B. D. Colen" wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> The only way to get photos "like HCB" has nothing to do with what 
>>>>>> lenses
>>>>>> you have in a drawer, or what camera you use them on; it is to be born
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> his artistic ability and sensibility. HCB would have shot "like HCB no
>>>>>> matter what equipment he had used, as long as that equipment had 
>>>>>> allowed
>>>>>> him to realize his vision. I'd concentrate on developing the vision, 
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> trying to ape the style. ;-)
>>>>>> B. D.
>>>>>> ___
>>>>>> Sent with SnapperMail
>>>>>> www.snappermail.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ...... Original Message .......
>>>>>> On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 20:13:17 -0800 Richard 
>>>>>> <richard-lists@imagecraft.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> "Why not, we all have at least a Leica body or lens right?
>>>>>> "
>>>>>> "Most of us suffer from equipment-itis, you know, the urge to say, 
>>>>>> "If I
>>>>>> "only have that XYZ, I can get that photo just like what's his name 
>>>>>> HCB!"
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> "contend that this is harder to do if you start the Leica obsession 
>>>>>> late
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> "you don't already have a drawer full of Elmars, Summicrons, etc. I 
>>>>>> mean
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> "the drawer already has a few ASPH 'luxes or 'crons of different focal
>>>>>> "lengths, there aren't a whole lot of (logical) reasons to get 
>>>>>> anything
>>>>>> else!
>>>>>> "
>>>>>> "Discuss,... or not.
>>>>>> "
>>>>>> "// richard (This email is for mailing lists. To reach me directly,
>>>>>> please
>>>>>> "use richard at imagecraft.com)
>>>>>> "
>>>>>> "
>>>>>> "_______________________________________________
>>>>>> "Leica Users Group.
>>>>>> "See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Barney Quinn, Jr.
>>>>> (301) 688-1982 (O)
>>>>> (240) 535-3036 (C)
>>>>> (877) 220-0981 (P)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Leica Users Group.
>>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Leica Users Group.
>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Leica Users Group.
>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Leica Users Group.
> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information



In reply to: Message from dlridings at gmail.com (Daniel Ridings) ([Leica] Lets start a Leica equipment discussion)