Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2005/01/24
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]But Hermes are masters of the art - surely they can pass the know how of marketing overpriced luxury goods to Leica? Cheers Jayanand Govindaraj Chennai, India ----- Original Message ----- From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net> To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 8:09 PM Subject: RE: [Leica] Doomed: Leica MP 0.58x > Your last line says it all, Scott... > "But even a > company that markets premium, boutique products must change with the > times, attract new customers and ultimately grow sales and profits." > > The problem is, given Leica's history, there's nothing to suggest any > ability to seriously change with the times. And the Catch 22 in all this > is that IF Leica changes, it won't be Leica. And then it's dead. :-) > > B. D. > > -----Original Message----- > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org > [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of > Scott McLoughlin > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 8:13 AM > To: Leica Users Group > Subject: Re: [Leica] Doomed: Leica MP 0.58x > > > B.D. > > These are excellent points. Your focus on digital is appropriate. Film > cameras have > a long lifetime, and while I believe cranking the prices up further on > the existing M > bodies is ill conceived, the price is perhaps justified for by the build > > quality and > longevity of the camera. I still believe there is a lower price point > entry-level > opportunity for Leica in film, yes - similar to Zeiss. All else being > equal, right > now most folks would pick a Leica film body over a Zeiss equivalent > given the > choice. Leica is not giving new buyers that choice. > > > But yes, digital is the real opportunity. The problem, well discussed on > > this list, is > that customers do not perceive that a digital body will have a useful > life many > decades long. Leica needs to deliver (1) a product (2) at a price > appropriate to > the new technology to attract new customers. Leica needs to price a > digital M > body at a price appropriate to rapid depreciation over five years. > > We must admit - this is really different from the typical Leica modus > operandi. > Yes, the lenses should have a longer shelf life. M-mount is the way to > go. But > if creating a new family of wides, for example, optimized for the new > digital > platform is more cost effective than delaying production in order to > support > every SA out there - then so be it. > > Ultimately, as you note, Leica's customer base is aging and dying off. > Leica must > somehow reach out to a new generation of customer in order to survive. > I'm 38 > years old and snagged my first 2 M6's this year to support my photo > hobby. I love > the product. Wandering about the world (perhaps a well heeled portion of > > the world, > I'll admit), numerous people note my Leica gear and express their own > wishes to > own Leica gear. Leica needs to make this possible and somehow manage to > > take > their money at a profit. > > If this requires new partnerships, manufacturing methods, product design > > and pricing , > reconfiguring the dealer network and so on the market and support such a > > product > for a new generation of buyers - then so be it. Serving only the > existing customer base > is a plan for certain eventual demise. > > No, I do not envision Leica gear sitting next to the digicams at Best > Buy. But even a > company that markets premium, boutique products must change with the > times, attract new customers and ultimately grow sales and profits. > > Scott > > B. D. Colen wrote: > >>There are two big problems with this analysis, Scott - >>1. In terms of suggesting that the way to go - film and digital - is >>with drastically lower price points, etc.: The company you're >>describing isn't Leica; never has been, never will be. If Leica can put > >>out a Leica quality $1500 body, and $750-$1500 lenses, the move begs >>two questions - a. Why not just buy Cosina or Zeiss? Two, what the hell > >>have they been doing ripping us off all these years? ;-) 2. The >>landscape is not littered with people waiting to jump into the world of > >>film. The world of film is the Titanic with it's stern in the air; most > >>people have already made it into the digital boats, or have slipped >>into the ocean, and there is a handful of diehards clinging to the >>stern rail screaming "film forever!" The question is not how to attract > >>new masses to Leica, it's how to hang on to the fanboys (and >>girls) and what kind of digital product to introduce to hopefully >>capture a new user base. >> >>Oh, and as to the idea of an M that requires new lenses - good bleeping > >>luck. The only thing that will now draw people to a Leica digital RF - >>well, will draw the people who are NOT prepared to buy everything Leica > >>builds simply because it has the name Leica on it - is a desire to use >>the lenses in which they have invested so much money, and which are >>clearly high quality. But an entirely new digital product that requires > >>all new lenses - at Leica prices? No way. >> >>B. D. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org >>[mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of > >>Scott McLoughlin >>Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 2:55 AM >>To: Leica Users Group >>Subject: Re: [Leica] Doomed: Leica MP 0.58x >> >> >>This is on target. >> >>-1- Leica has a great product and a great brand. Folks want them. P&S >>scale market? >>No way. But lots of serious amateurs sitting on the sidelines of the >>Leica shooting >>experience. >> >>-2- The product price is just too high. Too high for what? Too high for >>contemporary >>customer expectations of camera and lens prices. >> >>-3- If Leica can make a good product at a lower price, their customer >>base will >>expand. They have the potential to move more product. What are those >>prices? Don't >>know, needs research. Maybe a $1.5K new body. $750 - $1.5K lenses. > At >>customer-perceived reasonable (but still premium) prices, Leica will >>move bodies and >>glass. >> >>-4- Zeiss will be hitting roughly the right price point IMHO. If Zeiss >>can show their >>commitment to the product line, that they're in it for the long haul, >>that they'll deliver >>upgraded product over time - then Zeiss will capture many folks waiting > >>on the >>sidelines for an affordable RF experience. >> >>-5- Leica's job is to deliver truly quality product at a lower price. >>They can deliver >>quality without virtually hand manufacturing the things in >>Portugal/Germany. They need >>to do whatever it takes. >> >>-6- Leica needs to deliver a more than credible RF, exchangable lens >>digital camera. >>Should be M mount, but IMHO, doesn't have to be (I'd like it to be). A > >>$5K digital >>M body will be DOA. The point of a digital body is to catch up, grow >>the customer >>base and start moving more glass. >> >>-7- Again, Leica has a great product and brand. There is demand. But >>the >> >>prices are >>skyrocketing out of control, and Leica reeks of imminent morbidity. >> >>-8- I love Leica stuff. I've been buying near mint chrome M6TTL's and >>used recent lenses for reasonable prices and feeling somewhat guilty >>for not buying new >>gear from Leica/dealers. Leica needs to bring Leica buyers back into a > >>relationship >>with the company. >> >>Scott >> >> >>Feli wrote: >> >> >> >>>You're right. They need to do something and when it comes to glass >>>they are king. If they could manage to make their lenses in Canon >>>mount with >>> >>> >>automatic >> >> >>>stop down metering, they would sell a bundle. But I doubt that their >>>pride would allow them >>>to do so. >>> >>>The other problem i see is that Leica gear is simply too expensive. I >>>have friends who were interested in buying an M, but when they saw the > >>>price tag they dropped the idea. >>>But I am not sure how to solve that. Move production out of Germany? >>> >>>Whatever they do, they need a digital M camera asap and it needs to be > >>>a killer piece of gear. Full frame, minimum of 12MP, weather sealed, >>>aimed at professionals.. I don't care of it doesn't use all, or none >>>of the current lenses. Canon screwed everyone when they changed mounts >>> >>> >> >> >> >>>and after the riots died down everything was ok. People who make a >>>living with their gear will drop the money on it if it's the right >>>tool for the job at hand. I've talked to several production >>>photographers, and almost all of them would buy one, because they need >>> >>> >> >> >> >>>a compact, quiet camera, with fast lenses that works well in the dark. >>> >>>I also think they should team up with someone and license the guts of >>>a good 8MP SLR and produce it with an R-mount. Make two models, one >>>for $1500 and >>> >>> >> >> >> >>>a sturdier one for more. >>> >>>I think Hasselblad is being a lot smarter about the future than Leica >>>and if they don't do something soon they are going to be finished. But >>> >>> >> >> >> >>>I would also bet that at that point ,they get bought by a big Japanese >>> >>> >> >> >> >>>firm... >>> >>> >>>feli >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Jan 21, 2005, at 9:59 AM, B. D. Colen wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Ah, but wouldn't Leica be ahead of the game working out a deal with >>>>Canon, where by Canon would get some sort of licensing fee for each >>>>lens sold in a working Canon mount? >>>> >>>>The point is that Leica needs to do SOMETHING if it's going to >>>>survive. Producing an extremely expensive digital backs for an R line >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >>>>that is already losing money - as wonderful as the cameras may be - >>>>isn't going to be the thing that saves Leica. And, as Frank pointed >>>>out, Leica's reputation lays with it's glass. There has to be a way >>>>for them to capitalize on that. >>>> >>>>Why don't they start advertising the glass for use with adapters on >>>>Canon EOS bodies? Use photos and endorsements from life-long Leica >>>>shooters... >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________________ >>>feli2@earthlink.net 2 + 2 = 4 >>>www.elanphotos.com >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Leica Users Group. >>>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Leica Users Group. >>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Leica Users Group. >>See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >