Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2004/11/09
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]And Seth - I think you are absolutely right about the New Zealand story - that has the ring of "urban digital legend" to it. ;-) And I just returned to the keyboard having wasted 10 minutes wasting two frames of 2 1/4 slide film on one of our cats... :-) Best B. D. -----Original Message----- From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of Seth Rosner Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 10:50 AM To: Leica Users Group Subject: Re: [Leica] Summilux vs. Summicron B.D. I don't think I disagree with one thing you wrote. Except that I suspect that the LHSA member who couldn't find film in New Zealand had an agenda or was looking for film in the wilderness. I simply do not believe that one cannot find film to buy in N.Z. Seth ----- Original Message ----- From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net> To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 10:16 AM Subject: RE: [Leica] Summilux vs. Summicron > Hi, Seth - I have said many times that I suspect there will be film > around during our life-times. The fact that Kodak and Fuji will > continue to manufacture film is hardly surprising, given the number of > film cameras out there. > > Far more telling however - and even I find it astonishing - is your > friend's experience. That is the reality. > > Beyond that, digital appeals top far more than editors and P&S > throw-away freaks. In fact, many editors have been resisting digital - > particularly magazine editors. Digital doesn't appeal to people > because it symbolizes anything - it appeals to people because it gives > the overwhelming majority as good or better results than they got with > film, cheaper and faster than they got those film results. You seem to > forget that most people don't shoot 25 iso slide film with Leica Ms > using the latest aspheric lenses - they shoot with disposable film > cameras (speaking of throw-away) and with point-and-shoots costing > less than $100. > > The real digital story is that digital delivers on the > never-quite-fulfilled promise of Polaroid - it's true instant > photography. And, as I mentioned in my response to Mark Rabiner, with > the arrival of the new Epson, Canon - and I just saw an ad in this > morning's paper for a similar product from Dell - people are being > offered their own 4x6 'labs' for about $150! If you're not a > Leicaphile, or someone who has a real need for film, or an artistic > interest in it, why would you want film when you can have a $150 > appliance at home that for $.29 a print cranks out 4x6s every bit as > good or better than the 4x6s you got at the corner lab - that were > often pretty crappy, dust covered, and scratched? > > As to shooting film and scanning - which I did for about five years, > yes, it's a great way to go if you want to shoot film. I still do it > on occasion, and I'm sure I will continue to do it for some time to > come. It does not, however, offer many of the benefits of digital that > go beyond cost and speed - but those sure are huge, important benefits > of digital. > > I think that those of you for whom money is less of a concern than it > is for most people greatly underestimate the importance of cost in > this film-digital equation. I shoot professionally, but when it comes > to my personal shooting, cost is an enormous part of the equation; I > have to think about my son's college tuition, and all my other > expenses, when I shoot for myself. And digital allows me to totally > ignore the cost part of photography - I can carry a camera with me all > the time and shoot my brains out - without spending a penny. I am > definitely shooting more now that I am shooting digital than I was > shooting when I was primarily using film. And the more I shoot for > myself, the better my photography for clients gets - and the more my > digital bw work looks like my film bw work. ;-) > > Yes, Seth, film will be around as long as we will - but with every > passing year it will become more and more exotic and, I suspect, more > expensive. Just as the price of digital storage and printing is > dropping, and will continue to drop up to a certain point, so the cost > of film and processing it will continue to rise. > > If you like film, shoot it. Enjoy it. Revel in it. But don't allow > your personal enjoyment to keep you from seeing the reality that we > are living through one of those major moments in the technical history > of photography in which the medium of photography moves from one form > of image capture and storage to another. > > B. D. > > -----Original Message----- > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org > [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf > Of Seth Rosner > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 8:39 AM > To: Leica Users Group > Subject: Re: [Leica] Summilux vs. Summicron > > > Hi B.D.: > > At the LHSA Leica Akademie meeting last week, I sat next to a member > who > > said that in New Zealand recently, he couldn't find a place to buy > film and had to buy a cheap digital to record his trip; added that > film would be dead > in two years. > > The following day Karen Sweet, Kodak representative, gave a > power-point presentation on Kodak's doings in imaging, both film and > digital. An astonishing array of world-class digital products and an > equally astonishing array of up-dated old and brand new professional > film emulsions, in 35mm and > other formats. During her talk and the ensuing q&a I could not help > thinking > of you. > > Take a look at the Kodak website for their film palette. Then talk > about > > film's demise. > > It is clear that professionals and editors to whom speed and ease of > transmission is critical are working, perhaps close to exclusively, in > digital. Equally clear that a majority of p&s consumers in the west > will > > choose digital for its ease and cheapness, and because it almost > symbolizes the disposable, throw-away world we live in. > > IMHO, Ted's current methodology is the very best combination of > quality and > ease: film capture, then scan, edit and print digitally. > > My strong bet: neither Kodak nor Fuji will leave the film business in > our lifetimes. > > Seth LaK 9 > > Had a wonderful time; wish you were her. ;-) > > Seth LaK 9 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net> > To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org> > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 10:48 PM > Subject: RE: [Leica] Summilux vs. Summicron > > >> First off, Marc, while I like the E-1, I wouldn't lose a nanosecond's >> sleep if digital turned out to be the passing fancy, or whatever it >> is > >> some of you seem to believe it is. I love film, love my Ms. Just like >> the people who loved their daguerreotypes loved those plates, and >> just > >> like the speed graphic shooters loved their film holders. >> >> But as much as I hate to burst your bubble, film is indeed dying. >> Tell > >> the folks at Ilford and Kodak that film isn't dying. Of course there >> are sixteen trillion film cameras out there. But that has nothing to >> do with whether film is dying. I'm sure you'll go on shooting film >> until the day you die, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the >> previous capture medium. The question isn't how many film cameras >> still exist, the important question is - at what rate is the number >> of > >> digital cameras increasing every six months, and how does that >> compare > >> to the number of film cameras being sold? >> >> As to the Nikon F6 - Yes indeed, it is due out - and I will place >> money on the fact that Nikon will, within 12 months of the >> introduction of the F6, announce a digital back for it - probably a >> full-frame digital back as they don't have one yet. No major camera >> company - other than Leica - will introduce a pro film camera that is >> not also a digital camera. For Gds sake, Nikon F5s and Canon EOS1ns >> are being virtually given away these days. >> >> Another sign of the ascendency of digital is the printers that Epson >> and Canon are now churning out for the home market that crank out >> 4x6s > >> at apx .$29 a piece - just pop in your CF card, or hook up your >> camera, and print away - no computer necessary, no knowledge of >> photoshop necessary. Your own "60 minute" photolab in on your own >> kitchen table. >> >> Yes, the reality is that film is now the domain of hobbiests, a small >> number of documentary photographers and some art photographers. Kids >> aren't buying film point and shoots now Mark - they're buying digital >> P&Ss and camera cell phones. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org >> [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf >> Of Mark Rabiner >> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 9:24 PM >> To: Leica Users Group >> Subject: Re: [Leica] Summilux vs. Summicron >> >> >> On 11/8/04 3:52 PM, "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net> typed: >> >>> That used to be the beauty, Vic. But alas, with the dying of film, >>> it > >>> is no longer true. While Leica equipment may hold its value better >>> than most film equipment, it is no longer holding it the way it did >>> even a year ago. M6 TTLs purchased for $1995 were selling for about >>> $1450 in near mint condition - now they're down to about $1150 - if >>> you're lucky- and used M7s, which are now selling for, what, around >>> $2800, are only worth approximately 50% of their new priced once >>> they've been driven off the lot. So if you're going to invest $2500 >>> in >> >>> a 50 1.4 lens, you damn well better love that lens. ;-) >>> >> >> Film is not dying BD. >> I think its great you are on a roll with your Olympus E but lets keep >> our perspective on the whole thing. The film market is being >> moderated > >> or minimized. AS there are other technological options which appear >> more popular for many uses. That's all. >> >> There are 10 billion (last count) cameras out there which all use >> film > >> to take pictures and plenty of people who are going to want to use >> them for quite some time. >> >> The Nikon F6 is due out soon. >> New film cameras are being introduced every day. >> >> And the ones made last year still work. >> >> >> >> >> Mark Rabiner >> Photography >> Portland Oregon >> http://rabinergroup.com/ >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information _______________________________________________ Leica Users Group. 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