Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2004/09/20
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]If we wanted to sell our race cars to break even, complete with update package, free servicing and updates, we would have to charge over $50,000,000 each. There would be few buyers! Frank On 20 Sep, 2004, at 20:58, B. D. Colen wrote: > I know this is true, Frank. But it would seem there is a tipping point, > beyond which R&D recovery becomes piracy - and beyond which consumers > will cease to consume. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org > [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of > Frank Dernie > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 3:48 PM > To: Leica Users Group > Subject: Re: Digital M/Digital Rebel was Re: [Leica] Lost Faith in > Leica > > > I was questioning Scott actually, but to take your points the vast bulk > of the cost of a new product is the development and tooling. To remain > in business this has to be paid for out of the sale price. Typical mass > produced goods such as cars and hifi have a manufacturing cost about > 1/10 retail, ie 90% of what you may goes back to cover marketing, > engineering, tooling, distribution, profit etc.. > In the case of typical small market volume items it has to be more than > this because the market will be tiny. That is what Leica are up against > and I am surprised they can survive. > Frank > > > On 20 Sep, 2004, at 19:53, B. D. Colen wrote: > >> First off, Frank, I didn't say that I expected a digital M to be >> priced the same as a film M; I expect a digital M to come in somewhere > >> between $4500 and 7K - which is completely and utterly outrageous. >> >> There is no reason why a digital M should cost more - in fact it >> should cost less - than cameras such as the Canon EOS MKII, or the >> Nikon DX...In fact, the digital M should cost less as it doesn't have >> to provide autofocus, doesn't have to provide the matrix metering, >> etc. etc. And at this point the CCDs are, or can be, off the shelf >> items. Keep in mind the Epson R-D1 is selling for $2500 - same price >> as an M7. While there's no question it isn't built like an M 7, that >> does beg the question why an digital M couldn't come in at $3500. >> >> We've all gotten so used to paying caviar prices for Leica equipment >> that we sometimes begin to believe that the prices are justified. ;-) >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org >> [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf >> Of Frank Dernie >> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 2:33 PM >> To: Leica Users Group; scott@adrenaline.com >> Subject: Re: Digital M/Digital Rebel was Re: [Leica] Lost Faith in >> Leica >> >> >> I am curious how you think a digital M could be sold for the same >> price as a film M. Not only does all the R&D have to be amortised, but > >> where there is currently just a pressure plate there will have to be a > >> (very) expensive sensor and all the electronics to make it all work. >> Dream on! Frank >> >> >> On 20 Sep, 2004, at 00:03, Scott McLoughlin wrote: >> >>> Roger what B.D. said. APS sensor at 6MP or so with >>> good noise control at higher ISO (IMHO, 800 has to >>> be very, very usable) is just fine. Just let the customers get used >>> to the crop, tell them which lenses just won't work and get something > >>> out the door. Hi megapix count is just a distraction, and full frame > >>> ain't gonna happen at anything but a stratospheric price point. >>> >>> I think by putting off an RF M for so long, Leica's just raising the >>> bar higher and higher for itself, setting up customers for an >>> eventual >> >>> let down. For digital, the product cycle has to more than one or two >>> designs per decade. >>> >>> RD-1 is a first data point in a digital M body. It's too pricey for >>> what it is, but it shows everybody that a company can get such a body > >>> out the door without moving heaven and earth or like heroics. >>> >>> FWIW, I believe the "price-point" for an APS sensor digi >>> M is about what the film bodies cost today: $2,700 USD. Anything >>> more, >> >>> and only the collectors and fondlers will buy them. At a much higher > >>> price than the current M's, Leica faithful shooters (and M newbies) >>> will buy M7's and MP's for shooting film, but go elsewhere for >>> digital >> >>> wants/ needs. >>> >>> Again, just IMHO. I guess we'll have to wait 2 years to >>> find out :-) >>> >>> >>> B. D. Colen wrote: >>> >>>> What would be the point? Quite simply the point would be to use them > >>>> with whatever crop factor is necessary. I can think of allot worse >>>> things than having the 35 Summilux ASPH morph into what might be the > >>>> world's best 50 mm lens. ;-) >>>> >>>> And don't put any money on the image quality of the digital M being >>>> any better than that of the Nikon D70 or the Digital Rebel. It's the >> build >>>> that sucks on those two, not the image quality. >>>> >>>> Oh, P.S. Leica has not for years been the company we all so fondly >>>> remember as E. Leitz, and some of our memories of that company may >>>> be >> >>>> a bit too nostalgia clouded as it is. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org >>>> [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf > >>>> Of Jonathan Borden >>>> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 5:44 PM >>>> To: Leica Users Group >>>> Subject: Digital M/Digital Rebel was Re: [Leica] Lost Faith in Leica >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> B. D. Colen wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> This just in from Mars: >>>>> I would buy a digital M - IF it was price-point competitive with >>>>> Canon >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> and Nikon bodies offering the same image quality. In other words, >>>>> if Leica produces a digital M for about $3K to 4K, that is >>>>> comparable in image quality, megp count, etc., to a Canon Rebel or >>>>> Nikon D70, I >> >>>>> wouldn't buy it. If, however, they produce a 10+ megp digital M >>>>> that >> >>>>> compares to the high end Canons or Nikons, I would indeed buy it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Amen. >>>> >>>> Of course if they made a digital M that was of the quality of a >>>> Digital Rebel then the company formerly known as E. Leitz will have >>>> entirely ceased to exist. >>>> >>>> My hope is that they are being properly anally compulsive and >>>> delaying the digital M until a 10mp+ sensor can be made that works >>>> well with the current crop of wide angle M lenses ... otherwise what > >>>> would be the point of a digital M? >>>> >>>> Jonathan >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Leica Users Group. >>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Leica Users Group. >>>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Leica Users Group. >>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >