Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2004/05/11
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]Thanks for the thoughtful post, Philippe - Your digital v film discussion is interesting, and I don't see your position as having anything to do with being a "snob," but I think the reality is that we have crossed the great divide from film to digital, and we're not going back. There will always be some people shooting film - largely in art photography - just as there are still some people experimenting with glass plates and with daguerreotypes. But just as film replaced glass plates as the dominant capture medium in photography, so digital is replacing film. Whether this is an aesthetic 'good,' is something that will be debated ad infinitum. But as to the Robert Capa photo - here I disagree violently with you. Whether this iconic image, by the man who, in effect, 'invented' modern photo journalism, and without question 'invented' modern war photography, is a fake or genuine is of enormous importance. We are not discussing an art photograph - we are discussing a piece of photo JOURNALISM, that is said to have captured a moment in the war that served the Germans as their "training wheels" for World War II. We are talking about what is perhaps the best known war photograph ever taken. IF it were a fake, it would not be a "war photograph," it would be an artists conception of a war photograph. It would not be photojournalism. In this case, if it is not real, it is irrelevant, as irrelevant as any still from any movie. But I think Whalen laid this debate to rest, and am convinced that this is a real war photograph, and deserves its place in history. Unfortunately, I think too many people today agree with you, and would say 'so what? It's still a striking photo.' And as we go down that road, we find ourselves more and more willing to accept fiction - written and photographic - as fact. And then where are we? Best B. D. -----Original Message----- From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf Of Philippe Orlent Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 4:20 PM To: Leica Users Group Subject: Re: [Leica] Best known photo ? B.D., It doesn't matter because Capa was the first to have such a kind of war photo published. Being the first, he shook up viewers so much that they looked at war differently from that moment on. It only proves his vision and artisity. The photo being real or fake doesn't change anything to that. This said, I really don't consider "a picture being not faked" as important for my appreciation of it. One can ask himself even if any picture is "real", since it is always an interpretation by the one that took it as in: I might see a same scene in a totally different way than you will. Not even speaking of framing, exposing, printing, and so on. One thing I can assure you though: these days, there isn't any professionally taken picture, that isn't edited digitally in one way or another, even if you don't notice it (which is for me a sign that the editing has been done as should) Which is (IMVHO) a good thing: it only leads to stronger and better images, that will tend to really show what's in the photographer's mind. So far for the Capa part. Since you are the first one that gets me to write more than a few well meant lines, also something on "the disappearing of analog in the favor of digital" fear (referring to the "where will we be in 10 years..." thread). Even if I have a digital camera (that you hardliners call a looka-leica, or pana-leica), even if I really adore working with it because it's the most ergonomical piece of digital P&S I've ever worked with, and because it has a very good lens (which is for me the most important part of a camera), and even if I'm of a generation that seems to have less problems with accepting the fact that with every new thing that appears, an older thing will disappear (I consider it a real bless to live in an era that will turn out to be an incredible turning point, not only for photography), even if most professional work I do (with professional photographers) is digital ATM, even then, I'm truly convinced that analog photography will never disappear. I even tend to buy more and more "classic" analog cameras ATM, because of the beauty and craftmanship they radiate, and the beauty I find in the imperfection of the images they produce. There is already a tendency in advertising (sorry, it's what I do for a living) to return to analog. Simply because images are getting so perfect ATM that they start lacking (what I cannot better describe as) humanity. Also because all photo's start to look alike. The lenses are super hard, the light flat or unnatural, and most PS editors remove all irregularities in such a way that we don't see humans anymore, but puppets without any character. As already said, beauty lies not within perfection IMO, on the contrary. True, digital is faster and is/will get less expensive (talking about middle and large format here, not 35mm), but these are only factors that apply in the kind of market situation that we have seen over the past years, being one of true economical crisis. Things are starting to revive a bit, and this will (hopefully) lead to more means for better and more distinguished results. Finally, please don't consider me a n00B. It's not because I (might) haven't read all the stuff you have, that I don't have a clue what I'm talking about. I suppose a considerable amount of years at art schools and some personal interest for the subject have aided to that. Know that I would find it truly a pity if all the above written would lead to the kind of discussions "old" and "young" folks have, where and the "old", and the "young" are both convinced that they are right. After all, what is more beautiful than passing your enthousiasm on to a next generation in such a way that the latter think they found truth themselves? ;) Sincerely, Philippe BTW: I'm 38 years old, but will always be young at heart. --- > From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net> > Reply-To: Leica Users Group <lug@leica-users.org> > Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:00:46 -0400 > To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org> > Subject: RE: [Leica] Best known photo ? > > Yes, it DOES matter. If in fact the photo was posed, faked, then it is > no longer "the best war photo of all times," because it is no longer a > war photo. There have been countless thousands of posed war photos > that are as good or better - single frames from movies. The point of > this photo is that it is real - if it is.That Capa actually captured > this instant that so encapsulated war, death, sacrifice, futility, > etc. Doesn't matter? Good God. What does matter? > > As I would take Whallen over someone writing for Time any day of the > week. Go read the Whallen essay. > > B. D. > > Doesn't matter?!! > > -----Original Message----- > From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org > [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf > Of Philippe Orlent > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 2:49 PM > To: Leica Users Group > Subject: Re: [Leica] Best known photo ? > > > In fact, it doesn't really matter, does it? > Quoting: > Robert Capa, in Focus > Blood and Champagne details the remarkable life of the 20th century's > greatest war photographer By MARYANN BIRD, Time Magazine june 30th, > 2003: > > "It was in Spain that Capa took his best-known photo, which purported > to show a militiaman a split second after he'd been fatally shot. > Debate over its authenticity still rages. The "truth" of the photo, > says Kershaw, is in its representation of a symbolic death. "The > Falling Soldier, authentic or fake, is ultimately a record of Capa's > political bias and idealism," he writes, adding: "Indeed, he would > soon come to experience the brutalizing insanity and death of > illusions that all witnesses who get close enough to the 'romance' of > war inevitably confront." " > --- >> From: "B. D. Colen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net> >> Reply-To: Leica Users Group <lug@leica-users.org> >> Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:34:17 -0400 >> To: "'Leica Users Group'" <lug@leica-users.org> >> Subject: RE: [Leica] Best known photo ? >> >> Ohmigod, not that again. That duck has been shot down and eaten. :-) >> See, among other things, Richard Whelan's essay, Robert Capa In >> Spain, > >> in the book "Heart of Spain - Robert Capa's Photographs of the >> Spainish Civil War, From The Collection of the Museo Nacional Centro >> De Arte Reina Sofia, published by Aperture in 1999. >> >> B. D. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org >> [mailto:lug-bounces+bdcolen=earthlink.net@leica-users.org] On Behalf >> Of Philippe Orlent >> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 2:29 PM >> To: Leica Users Group >> Subject: Re: [Leica] Best known photo ? >> >> >> And rumours go the photo is faked. >> >>> From: Thinkofcole@aol.com >>> Reply-To: Leica Users Group <lug@leica-users.org> >>> Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 13:10:01 EDT >>> To: lug@leica-users.org >>> Subject: [Leica] Best known photo ? >>> >>> This 1936 photograph, by Robert Capa of a Spanish soldier at the >>> moment of death during the Spanish Civil War, was taken, I believe, >>> with a Leica and is regarded among the great photograph of all time. >>> -- bob cole _______________________________________________ >>> Leica Users Group. >>> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Leica Users Group. >> See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information >> > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > > _______________________________________________ > Leica Users Group. > See http://leica-users.org/mailman/listinfo/lug for more information > _______________________________________________ Leica Users Group. 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