RE: [Leica] Leicavit, After Market Products, etc.

["bdcolen" <bdcolen@earthlink.net>]

I'm not saying, Kit, that economics don't play a part in pricing - of
course they do. But again, the bottom line is that, as a consumer, all I
want to know is who is selling the best product at the best price. And
in this case, Tom Abrahamson wins in a walk...:-)

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
[mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us] On Behalf Of Kit
McChesney | acmefoto
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 3:24 PM
To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
Subject: RE: [Leica] Leicavit, After Market Products, etc.


B.D.--

With all due respect, I respect Tom's products very much. I want to sell
them. I know they're built like tanks! I'm only playing devil's
advocate, that is, they are different, there are different "machines"
making them. I would have expected the price to be closer, too. At the
same time, they are made in different countries, with different
economies, different conditions altogether. There are differences that
make their prices different. Am I saying that the differences are
justified? Not necessarily. I am pointing out that to me, some of
Austin's reasoning seems ... well, unreasonable! Reducing the argument
to the fact that "some schmoe CEO drives a Beemer" doesn't cut it for
me. Sorry! ;-)

And really, B.D., can you say that economics has nothing to do with what
things cost? I mean, let's say that someone makes an MP
look-and-act-alike. And does it for less than Leica can do it. They've
made a knockoff of an MP by duplicating every part inside the camera,
but have not had to invest in the cost of design and manufacture that
Leica had to make. And maybe they improve on the design, too, in the
process. But the investment in the design isn't there. It's someone
else's design. And design and development and research isn't cheap.

I'm not saying that this is what Tom has done, not at all, and if anyone
says that I am saying that, I'll be the first to poke you in your
viewfinder eye; I know that Tom took the original design and changed it
radically and made a superior product to the original Leicavit. And I do
believe that the new Leicavit will have to be, as I said, superior to
Tom's, in order to beat it out among those who appreciate the pure
functionality of the product.

Kit

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
[mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On Behalf Of bdcolen
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:27 PM
To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
Subject: RE: [Leica] Leicavit, After Market Products, etc.


But Kit, with an ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF RESPECT DUE - :-) - as Austin has in
effect, if not in so many words, pointed out:

Only one thing is relevant to potential customers who do not 'get off'
by paying money for things that say "Leica" on them:

Is the Leica product more efficient, or more reliable, or easier to use
so that it justifies paying the much higher price? Remember - and this
has nothing to do with personal loyalty to Tom A. - the Abrahamson
Rapidwinder is built like a tank, functions flawlessly, and has been
proven in use over a number of years. It truly does take one hell of a
lickin and keep on functioning, NOT tickin.'

The question of who had higher development cost, who would or would not
have developed the product had someone not developed a version of it
first, the question of who drives what kind of car or has what kind of
health insurance, is all very interesting for a discussion in an
economic class, but shouldn't have anything to do with purchasing
decisions.

With ALL due respect - :-)

B. D.

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
[mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us] On Behalf Of Kit
McChesney | acmefoto
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 2:09 PM
To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
Subject: RE: [Leica] Leicavit, After Market Products, etc.


With MORE all due respect to everyone, including Tom, there is one
factor that we haven't actually factored into this equation: Tom's
products would not exist in their current configuration (if at all) had
Leica not invested in R&D in the original Leicavit product when it was
first introduced. That fact may or may not be relevant now, but it is
true that it would be much easier for one to take apart an existing
product and remanufacture or improve upon the original design, than to
make a totally new design, completely from scratch. There is engineering
and design time and investment in the original product that is absent
from the manufacture of the redesigned product made by an after-market
concern. Not only that, but there is a tremendous investment in the
total product line, with hundreds of items from lenses to cameras to
parts ad infinitum, that is absent from the small after-market
operation. Every Leica product that is currently manufactured is part of
a manufacturing matrix, a web of products that are interconnected in
thousands of different ways, both in design and in overall cost to
create. Don't forget all that.

Reducing the price differences to whether the CEO drives a
company-leased BMW is ... well, I won't say silly, but ... how about
simplistic? (Sorry Austin, but we've had this discussion before about
gray market costs versus authorized market). The expense of a car lease
or other costs for travel and meals, and whatever--if in fact there is
one, and we do not know if there is a car lease, remember--are probably
less relevant to the price of the unit in question than are other costs
related more directly to research, development, manufacturing,
transportation to market, etc., which are much higher overall and more
directly related to the price of the product. Yes, compensation is a
factor, but we are also talking about two very different kinds of
companies, too. One a very small company, the other a company with a
global reach and a wider range of markets.

My .02 cents. ;-)

Kit

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
[mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On Behalf Of Austin
Franklin
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 11:21 AM
To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
Subject: RE: [Leica] Comments on a BD Colen statement & PMA


> The fact that the Leicavit costs 1.5X the cost of the Winder-M is 
> troubling.

Patrick,

I believe you have failed to factor in the "Ivory Tower" factor...  You
don't think Herr Cohn drives a Hyundai, now do you?  My guess is the
company leases a new BMW for him at least every two years...  You don't
think he stays in a Holiday Inn when traveling, or eats at Friendly's
for a "night out on the town" with clients?  I'm sure this is all
factored into the price of the Leicavit, and other Leica products.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you...but if what I jest
about is even remotely true, realize you are subsidizing that with your
Leica purchase...and again, not that there is anything wrong with
that...

;-)

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