Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2002/05/14

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Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: Photoshop dilemma
From: kiklaas@iinet.net.au
Date: 15 May 2002 01:27:55 -0000

Darrell, 

Do not get involved in a long drawn out debate with B.D - been there, done 
that - "it's like fighting for peace".

Conserve your energy for the things that give you the most pleasure.

Karina

"When in the trenches, it is not the rank that counts."


> No I haven't been on the list very long.  About six
> weeks so far. 
> 
> B.D.  I do grasp what you are trying to say. The
> fact that I don't agree with your point of view
> doesn't mean I don't understand it. I just draw the
> line between photography and a peice of graphic art at
> a different spont than you and some others.   
> 
> The reason I have continued the dialog is that I think
> it is a difficult subject to get consensus on, and you
> and I taking opposing roles in the discussion may get
> us and others to think about where the line between a
> photo and a piece of graphic art is.  I suspect that
> the line is hard to define, and a bit different for
> everyone.  We can probably all agree on the extremes,
> but the shades of grey in between that are hard to
> agree on. 
> 
> Examples: 
> 1.If you merge two photos of the same group of people
> and same pose to get the best expression on each
> persons face, is it now not a photograph? 
> 
> 2.If you delete a person from a photograph is it now
> not a photograph?  Does your answer change depending
> on how prominent the person is in the original photo?
> What about if the person was a tiny spec in the
> background? 
> 
> 3.If a photo journalist alters a photo, but not the
> truth it portrays is it not a photograph? If a
> advertisment has an altered photograph to try to more
> effectively get us to buy something is it not a
> photograph? Why are the standards different for many
> of us on these two examples? 
> 
> 4.How would your critique of Sonny's photo with the
> wagon change by knowing he had put two photos
> together?  
> 
> These may seem like picking nits, but are probably
> important if we are trying to interact with each other
> on some common basis. 
> 
> BTW: What I objected to in your response was you
> appeared to dismiss my view because of my limited
> experience with Photoshop...which I see as irrelevant
> to this discussion. We aren't discussing Photoshop, we
> are discussing photography, an area where I have
> pretty deep experience having been a photographer for
> almost 30 years.  
> 
> As far as Uelsmann, there are enough gallery owners
> and museum curators that think he is a photogapher
> (plus I believe he is a professor of photography at a
> university in Florida) that you should at least agree
> that there are a range of differing opinions on the
> subject. 
> 
> I have no problem with differing oppinions.  I do have
> a problem with lack of respect. If we can't show
> respect in dealing with each other then we have
> greatly diminished the value of the interaction. And I
> don't believe you lessen the impact of a barb by
> putting a wink on the end of it...
> 
> I hear and respect your opinion.  I don't agree with
> it, but I don't have to. I think it is interesting
> enough that there are extreme points of view to merit
> discussion and thought by the group. DJ
> 
> --- B. D. Colen <bdcolen@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > First, try reading what I have written, and you will
> > see that I have never,
> > in any post on this subject, suggested that
> > photographers can't be artists.
> > 
> > Second, if you think that my comments have
> > constituted personal attacks on
> > you you haven't been on this list very long. ;-)
> > 
> > Next, as to the subject at hand =
> > 
> > I agree with you completely that there are
> > photographers who are artists,
> > and photographers who are craftsmen.  Where we
> > disagree, Darrell, and what
> > you seem unable to grasp, is that in the view of
> > many photographers, someone
> > who builds artistic pieces out of photographic
> > images is not producing
> > photographs, but rather is producing works of art
> > built from photographic
> > images. That artist may well be a photographer, who
> > in addition to producing
> > photographs, also uses his or her own photographs as
> > materials with which to
> > do other kinds of art: but the fact that the person
> > is a photographer does
> > not mean that the images they produce through
> > construction/alteration
> > methods are what we speak of when we call something
> > a photograph.
> > 
> > And, similarly, a photographer who produces what are
> > called photographs may
> > be an artist, or may be a craftsman - but that
> > judgment would probably be
> > made on the quality/originality/artistic merit of
> > their work, not on whether
> > it is or is not manipulated beyond the ways in which
> > one normally
> > manipulates photographic images in the printing
> > process.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> > [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On
> > Behalf Of Darrell
> > Jennings
> > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 10:21 PM
> > To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: Photoshop dilemma
> > 
> > 
> > There are photographers that are artists, and
> > photographers that are craftsmen.  I think there is
> > room for both.  You obviously don't and can only
> > respond by a personal attack on me...pretty
> > unprofessional in my view.
> > 
> > --- B. D. Colen <bdcolen@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> > > [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On
> > > Behalf Of Darrell
> > > Jennings
> > > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 1:16 PM
> > > To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> > > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: Photoshop dilemma
> > >
> > >
> > > And I completely disagree....  I am NOT a
> > Photoshop
> > > expert.  In fact I had never scanned a photo
> > before
> > > two weeks ago, and only have Photoshop Elements
> > > which
> > > I have very limited expertise with.
> > >
> > > That said, I don't limit my view of photography by
> > > expecting that what I see in a photo is exactly
> > what
> > > was there. There are many great photographs that
> > > were
> > > enhanced by use of filters and traditional
> > darkroom
> > > techniques. I don't see Photoshop or it's
> > > competitors
> > > as different than that, they've just gone another
> > > step. In fact photographers like Jerry Uelsmann
> > have
> > > done very altered realities for many years without
> > > using a computer to do so (check out
> > > www.uelsmann.net
> > > for examples).  I still see this kind of work as
> > > photography.
> > >
> > > ------------------
> > >
> > > Well then, given that you have been scanning and
> > > using Photoshop elements
> > > for two full weeks, and given the fact that you
> > > consider a cut and paste
> > > image of lips emerging from a dirt road a
> > > photographs, I guess there's
> > > really nothing I can add to the discussion.;-)
> > >
> > > B. D.
> > >
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, see
> > http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html
> > 
> > 
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> 
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