Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2002/05/14
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]Darrell, Do not get involved in a long drawn out debate with B.D - been there, done that - "it's like fighting for peace". Conserve your energy for the things that give you the most pleasure. Karina "When in the trenches, it is not the rank that counts." > No I haven't been on the list very long. About six > weeks so far. > > B.D. I do grasp what you are trying to say. The > fact that I don't agree with your point of view > doesn't mean I don't understand it. I just draw the > line between photography and a peice of graphic art at > a different spont than you and some others. > > The reason I have continued the dialog is that I think > it is a difficult subject to get consensus on, and you > and I taking opposing roles in the discussion may get > us and others to think about where the line between a > photo and a piece of graphic art is. I suspect that > the line is hard to define, and a bit different for > everyone. We can probably all agree on the extremes, > but the shades of grey in between that are hard to > agree on. > > Examples: > 1.If you merge two photos of the same group of people > and same pose to get the best expression on each > persons face, is it now not a photograph? > > 2.If you delete a person from a photograph is it now > not a photograph? Does your answer change depending > on how prominent the person is in the original photo? > What about if the person was a tiny spec in the > background? > > 3.If a photo journalist alters a photo, but not the > truth it portrays is it not a photograph? If a > advertisment has an altered photograph to try to more > effectively get us to buy something is it not a > photograph? Why are the standards different for many > of us on these two examples? > > 4.How would your critique of Sonny's photo with the > wagon change by knowing he had put two photos > together? > > These may seem like picking nits, but are probably > important if we are trying to interact with each other > on some common basis. > > BTW: What I objected to in your response was you > appeared to dismiss my view because of my limited > experience with Photoshop...which I see as irrelevant > to this discussion. We aren't discussing Photoshop, we > are discussing photography, an area where I have > pretty deep experience having been a photographer for > almost 30 years. > > As far as Uelsmann, there are enough gallery owners > and museum curators that think he is a photogapher > (plus I believe he is a professor of photography at a > university in Florida) that you should at least agree > that there are a range of differing opinions on the > subject. > > I have no problem with differing oppinions. I do have > a problem with lack of respect. If we can't show > respect in dealing with each other then we have > greatly diminished the value of the interaction. And I > don't believe you lessen the impact of a barb by > putting a wink on the end of it... > > I hear and respect your opinion. I don't agree with > it, but I don't have to. I think it is interesting > enough that there are extreme points of view to merit > discussion and thought by the group. DJ > > --- B. D. Colen <bdcolen@earthlink.net> wrote: > > First, try reading what I have written, and you will > > see that I have never, > > in any post on this subject, suggested that > > photographers can't be artists. > > > > Second, if you think that my comments have > > constituted personal attacks on > > you you haven't been on this list very long. ;-) > > > > Next, as to the subject at hand = > > > > I agree with you completely that there are > > photographers who are artists, > > and photographers who are craftsmen. Where we > > disagree, Darrell, and what > > you seem unable to grasp, is that in the view of > > many photographers, someone > > who builds artistic pieces out of photographic > > images is not producing > > photographs, but rather is producing works of art > > built from photographic > > images. That artist may well be a photographer, who > > in addition to producing > > photographs, also uses his or her own photographs as > > materials with which to > > do other kinds of art: but the fact that the person > > is a photographer does > > not mean that the images they produce through > > construction/alteration > > methods are what we speak of when we call something > > a photograph. > > > > And, similarly, a photographer who produces what are > > called photographs may > > be an artist, or may be a craftsman - but that > > judgment would probably be > > made on the quality/originality/artistic merit of > > their work, not on whether > > it is or is not manipulated beyond the ways in which > > one normally > > manipulates photographic images in the printing > > process. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us > > [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On > > Behalf Of Darrell > > Jennings > > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 10:21 PM > > To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us > > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: Photoshop dilemma > > > > > > There are photographers that are artists, and > > photographers that are craftsmen. I think there is > > room for both. You obviously don't and can only > > respond by a personal attack on me...pretty > > unprofessional in my view. > > > > --- B. D. Colen <bdcolen@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us > > > [mailto:owner-leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us]On > > > Behalf Of Darrell > > > Jennings > > > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 1:16 PM > > > To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us > > > Subject: RE: [Leica] Re: Photoshop dilemma > > > > > > > > > And I completely disagree.... I am NOT a > > Photoshop > > > expert. In fact I had never scanned a photo > > before > > > two weeks ago, and only have Photoshop Elements > > > which > > > I have very limited expertise with. > > > > > > That said, I don't limit my view of photography by > > > expecting that what I see in a photo is exactly > > what > > > was there. There are many great photographs that > > > were > > > enhanced by use of filters and traditional > > darkroom > > > techniques. I don't see Photoshop or it's > > > competitors > > > as different than that, they've just gone another > > > step. In fact photographers like Jerry Uelsmann > > have > > > done very altered realities for many years without > > > using a computer to do so (check out > > > www.uelsmann.net > > > for examples). I still see this kind of work as > > > photography. > > > > > > ------------------ > > > > > > Well then, given that you have been scanning and > > > using Photoshop elements > > > for two full weeks, and given the fact that you > > > consider a cut and paste > > > image of lips emerging from a dirt road a > > > photographs, I guess there's > > > really nothing I can add to the discussion.;-) > > > > > > B. D. > > > > > > -- > > > To unsubscribe, see > > http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience > > http://launch.yahoo.com > > -- > > To unsubscribe, see > > http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, see > http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience > http://launch.yahoo.com > -- > To unsubscribe, see http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > - -- To unsubscribe, see http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html