Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2002/01/13

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Subject: Re: [Leica] Re: To crop or not to crop
From: John Straus <Mail@SlideOne.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 21:15:22 -0600

on 1/13/02 1:34 PM, Sander van Hulsenbeek at vanhulsenbeek@wxs.nl wrote:

> The question is: is the 'to crop or not to crop' debate relevant or moot in
> the appreciation
> and 'judging' of other Luggers pictures on the LUG, or of anyone's pictures
> anywhere, for
> that matter.

But this isn't a real judging is it where there are winners and losers? I
guess it the posters call but if they want comments or critique they should
get it from all angles. If this was a contest or someone's site that they
were just posting to show work and not get feedback I could agree.
 
> A picture is submitted 'as is', and, in my view as such should only be
> judged on 3 levels: what do I see, what do I think
> and, lastly, what do I feel,  in that picture.

But in a learning process ideas or solutions on how to help an image are
what people look for and appreciate. They can be more easily applied to the
image itself or the photographers thought before shooting their next shot.
 
> Using this triple level appreciation has the advantage that it's basis is
> what the viewer has in front of him/her. And nothing more.
> Then it is not relevant what the maker did of should have done. That period
> in the picture's life is past us
> and no longer of  any relevance. Cropping issues go the same way. They
> should be - have been - the concern of the
> the maker and not of the viewer.

If the maker was showing us his porfolio... Saying peoples opinion of
cropping has no relevance sounds odd. If you sell am image to someone they
may crop that puppy down to whatever suits their need and appeals to their
style. You make it sound like it can't be changed...ever...
 
> It is the 3 level appreciation of pictures ( again: what do I see, what do I
> think and, lastly, what do I feel) that
> really does justice to the vast - no doubt about that - amount of work,
> dedication and love that has gone into any
> picture that anyone of us dare to show to the world. Because that is what we
> do here!

Photographers have blind spots too. Getting attached to an image for the
wrong reasons. They will adjust the image to where they 'think' it's at it's
best. But when they put it in their PAW for critique they want to hear what
others think about everything I'd assume. I'm not saying they have to do
what others opinions are saying but hearing those opinions is why we put
them up and ask for comments.

> Arme, I think you are absolutely right to submit you pictures as you took
> them. If you had  wanted to crop, you would have taken one, or two, steps
> forward. I am sure of that. Or have taken an orther picture! So good for
> you, submit them as they are!

I know you know these people but how can you say "I'm sure of that" ?? He
wasn't taking a photo of a statue? There might have been no time for
adjustment on the scene. So cropping is a needed tool for post adjustment so
that the image stays strong like the photographer saw it. It's fine to post
full frame but it's training the eye to see and for you to think before
pressing the shutter that's important. I can't even think of the # of times
I get film back and say shoulda, coulda...and wish I woulda. At the time of
the shot everything 'seemed' right but could have been better and improved
upon. The ability to crop saves an image with pieces that harm it's overall
character. If your trained enough to always shoot quality full frame images
great but those folks are far and few between IMO (Not meant to offend
anyone). 

We're dealing with PAW here not some fixed show like FOM2 or a gallery
showing. This whole thing is a learning process for everyone participating.
>From what I've seen opinions are asked for and should be given openly. It's
up to the photographer to listen & discuss or not...
- -- 
John 
Chicago, IL 
http://SlideOne.com
==================== 

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Replies: Reply from "Eric" <ericm@pobox.com> ([Leica] Re: To crop or not to crop)