Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 1999/03/27

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Subject: Re: [Leica] grain in ilford/kodak/fuji B&W films at ISO3200
From: Mark Rabiner <mrabiner@concentric.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:13:48 -0800

George Hartzell wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I've been enjoying my M6, shooting at small poorly lit folk music
> venues.
> 
> I don't do my own processing at the moment.
> 
> I've run three rolls of Delta 3200 through a lab that's processed them
> in D76, 1:1 (I think), with good but grainy results.  Another roll of
> Delta 3200 that went through a different lab was less happy, I'm not
> sure that they've ever seen the film before....
> 
> I'm curious about grain in high speed film:
> 
>   a) all other things equal, will a film (say, Delta 3200) shot at 1600
>      have less grain then when shot at 3200?

First of all you want to shoot is at the speed which would give you
adequate shadow detail at with the developer/Dilution/Temp you are using.
If you are going to forgo shadow detail in lieu of shooting speed and
you are going to push your highlights up a notch or two and expose for
them that's called pushing and is usually thought of as the road to
grain. You develop more.
But if you are super Bullish on shadow detail and are then in effect
pulling your film by giving it more exposure than most people and less
development that also leads to more grain because you have more overall
density. Pulling gives you in some senses a less "cleaner" neg.
The logic for pushing of pulling does not overwhelm me. I like an
optimum neg but others would say that is an optitium neg for "me." Is
there an objective reality? I'm not the one to ask.
> 
>   B) given a particular film, can I control grain by specifying
>      particular developers, dilutions, temps, Etc???

That is the name of the game.
You've got whole categories of developers: Super-fine Grain, Solvent
(Fine Grain) Non-Solvent Developers (High Definition). (Terminology as
in the "The Film Developing Cookbook" just out as discussed by Anchell/Troop).
The film is the big thing, then the developer, then the dilution and now
there are temperature issues which I am new to with the T Max
developers. And these guys are talking about getting better results
using a slower film but with a developer that brings the real speed up
to the next films level. (Plus x becomes Tri x in effect) This is
revolutionary stuff! Get the Book!

>   C) of the high speed B&W films (Ilford D3200, Kodak TMax3200, Fuji
>      Neopan 1600), are there significant differences in their grain?

A big magazine article came out which someone will reference you to and
which seems reasonably credible as an opinion. I got a vibe which said
the New Ilford would change the rules of the game but as usually its not
that clear cut. It does get the Brownie Film Vote as the only game in
town. For what its worth: Fuji is the cheapest. The votes are still
coming in on this one and I am all ears although some of the votes will
be coming from me.
Mark Rabiner
PS I used to teach Guitar in the '70's at "Music Folk" in Webster Groves
Missouri. It's still there. It was a center of sorts for folk music
those days maybe now. The Boyer Family.
I played Guitar at weddings before I photographed them. Not the same
wedding though. And now I don't do either much.