Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 1996/08/02

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To: Leica-users <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>
Subject: What to buy - M?
From: Thomas Pindelski <ThomasP@POSTOFFICE.nacm.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 96 07:19:00 PDT
Encoding: 230 TEXT


I have bought a few items from Jim Kuehl over the years - he is a long time 
Shutterbug advertiser.  On the rare occasions when I have had to return 
something, he has never given me any problems and is a fair person to deal 
with.  His prices  seem generally 10-20% lower than Tamarkin's, though I 
should add that Tamarkin is also extremely professional to deal with.

Others, far more knowledgeable than I, will give you guidance on what to 
buy, but a low cost entry option, given your preference for wide lenses, is 
a good used M2 (~$1100 should get you an excellent example) with 35mm and 
50mm Summicrons. Unless you need the f/1.4 speed the Summiliuxes offer, the 
f/2 Summicrons are generally regarded as the finest lenses around.  The 
later black alloy mounts are lighter than the chromed brass ones, the 
performance contrastier.  Some swear by the higher resolution of the earlier 
Summicrons, others by the higher contrast of the later ones. All are great - 
I have used old and new 50mm. The very latest ones have non-removeable lens 
heads, precluding enlarger or close-up device usage.

A good Wetzlar 50mm Summicron in black alloy can be bought for $500, the 
35mm counterpart $800.  The latter is frequently Canadian, but the quality 
of Canadian lenses, for this user, is as good as the German ones.  Recent 
correspondence on this list suggests that quality control has fallen at 
Leitz, so look for lenses _without_ the focal length marked on the barrel - 
distinguishing them as late-70s to early-80s - if you believe these 
concerns.

The premium for the M4s seems high given the relatively minor advantages of 
a cranked rewind (get an add on crank for the M2 for $10), a rapid loading 
spool, and a (small) 135mm frame. Some aver the M6 is of lower quality, but 
as I have not used one I cannot comment. The TTL meter is nice, as the M2 
will need a clip on meter - $75-$200 - if you want coupled light readings.

Later M2s (some early ones may have been retrofitted) add the frame preview 
lever missing on the early ones (35/50/90 frames) and a lever rather than a 
button to permit rewinding. I'm not sure of this, but I believe that earlier 
ones omitted the self timer as well. The M6 has no self timer either.

My M2, used mostly with a 35mm f/3.5 Summaron lens (mint - $395 - from Sandy 
Ritz ((800) 956 9132), cost the very small sum of $500 2 years ago + $150 
for a thorough cleaning by John Maddox ((864) 297 6931).  Rangefinders in 
older cameras can be dim, either because of dirt on the RF mirror or loss of 
silvering.  Mine was dirty - an easy fix. Resilvering is probably costlier, 
mandating removal of the RF unit (=labor $). The camera is a tad scruffy 
looking, but works perfectly.  I also had Mr. Maddox replace the brass strap 
lugs with Leitz stainless steel ones - the brass originals are soft and mine 
were almost worn through. If you really need the M6 frames (28mm and 75mm 
added) you can get them retrofitted, but I cannot think this is cost 
effective. At least with the M2/M3 viewfinders you only see one frame at a 
time, thus avoiding finder clutter. If you plan on using the 28mm, the M6 
will not need a separate viewfinder. The (expensive) 21mm always does.

Given the choice of the best feel, I would go for a very early 2-stroke M3. 
 The slower film wind is not really noticeable in practice and the camera 
has that something in the feel which speaks to me. Intriguingly, the wind 
lever is a fraction shorter than on later M3s and all M2s, further adding to 
the feel. Beware the strap lugs though. A different design, which my 
repairman says he cannot replace. No 35mm frame on the M3, though, 
(50/90/135), so you will need either a (clunky) bespectacled 35mm (I use a 
superb chrome Summicron)  or a separate finder. Speeds are the old 
progression (10, 25, 50, 100, etc) but who cares as long at they are 
accurate?

Hope this helps.  My comments are those of a 25 year M3 (and 2 year M2) 
amateur user. I cannot advise you on collectible status other than to say 
that the Glass case set makes prices higher for all of us.

By the way, here is Sandy Ritz's current list from: 
http://www.ritzcam.com/catalog/Contents/LeicaMBodies.html

M2 w/ 50mm f2.8 Elmar as close to mint as I have ever seen! #942xxx (10-)
                                                                             
 $2695
               M3 DS,hardly used, few slight rubs #748xxx (10-)
                                                                             
 $1595
               M2 engr., some wear ,clean user #935xxx (9-)
                                                                              
 $695
               M2 #994xxx (9-)
                                                                              
 $895
               M2 R Small amount of chrome discoloration on front, Vulcanite 
10-, base 9+,
               top 9++, back 10-, slight lug wear on one side only #1249xxx
                                                                            
 $2,295
               M3 DS #806xxx (9-)
                                                                              
 $895
               M3 DS #818xxx (9++)
                                                                             
 $1495
               M3 DS #917xxx (9+)
                                                                             
 $1295
               M3 DS w/ Papers #736xxx (9++)
                                                                             
 $1495
               M3 DS #862xxx (9++)
                                                                             
 $1395
               M3 SS #991xxx (9)
                                                                             
 $1395
               M3 SS #959xxx (9++)
                                                                             
 $1495
               M3DS base 8 otw 9 #839xxx (9)
                                                                              
 $795
               M2 button rewind, w/ strap, base 9++, top 9-, paint wear on 
back, Vulcanite
               9+, some lug wear #947xxx
                                                                              
 $950


35mm f2.0 Summicron Bk w/ caps shade #2974xxx (10-)
                                                                              
 $695
               35mm f2.0 Summicron Wetzlar in bubble #2394xxx (10-)
                                                                              
 $895
               35mm f2.0 Summicron w/ eyes #2066xxx (9+)
                                                                              
 $795
               35mm f2.0 Summicron blk. in bubble and box #2316xxx (10-)
                                                                              
 $995
               35mm f2.8 Summaron w/ eyes #1615xxx (9+)
                                                                              
 $450
               35mm f2.8 Summaron w/ eyes #1665xxx (9+)
                                                                              
 $450
               35mm f3.5 Summaron #1179xxx (9)
                                                                              
 $295
               35mm f3.5 Summaron w/ eyes #1488xxx (9+)
                                                                              
 $349
               35mm f3.5 Summaron w/ eyes #1520xxx (9++)
                                                                              
 $395
               35mm f3.5 Summaron w/eyes #1435xxx (9)
                                                                              
 $350
               35mm F3.5 Summaron w/ eyes #1362xxx (9++)
                                                                              
 $349
               35mm f3.5 Summaron w/ eyes #1520xxx (9++)
                                                                              
 $395
               35mm f3.5 Summaron #1274xxx (9++)
                                                                              
 $350
               35mm f3.5 Summaron #1564xxx (9++)
                                                                              
 $350

50mm f1.4 Summilux #1661xxx (10-)
                                                                              
 $895
               50mm f1.5 Summarit #1331xxx (9+)
                                                                              
 $395
               50mm f2.0 Summicron #1530xxx (9+)
                                                                              
 $650
               50mm f2.0 Summicron #1403xxx (10-)
                                                                              
 $550
               50mm f2.0 Summicron DR in box (CLA) #1446xxx (9++)
                                                                              
 $595
               50mm f2.0 Summicron collapsible #1349xxx (9+)
                                                                              
 $395
               50mm f2.0 Summicron Collapsible engraved, cleaning marks 
#1318xxx (9)
                                                                              
 $295
               50mm f2.0 Summicron collapsible #1190xxx (9+)
                                                                              
 $395
               50mm f2.0 Summicron collapsible #1194xxx (9+)
                                                                              
 $395
               50mm f2.0 Summicron collapsible #1193xxx (9+)
                                                                              
 $395
               50mm f2.0 Summicron DR w/ eyes (clean but slight crack) 
#1784xxx
                                                                              
 $595
               50mm f3.5 Elmar #142xxx (9+)
                                                                              
 $395


ThomaP@nacm.com
 ----------
From: owner-leica-users
To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
Subject: Trying to decide what to buy.....
Date: Tuesday, July 30, 1996 9:03PM

Just recently "signed on." I owned a Leica early sixties and have
decided to buy another. Bought a book by Brian Bower and have ordered a
couple more. I don't need another camera. I just want a Leica and would
appreciate any help on what to buy as far as lenses and bodies.
 The camera would be used with a maximum of 50mm and presently am
planning on buying a 35mm and 50mm F2. There seem to be several
different lens designs....or, at least improvements along the way. Also,
not sure about whether to buy black or silver lenses; think that I
remember reading that the black is an alloy. Definitely do not want an
M5. Though I don't want to spend the price of a new camera some of the
better condition M4s are about $2000 and presently M6 factory
demonstrators are advertised for $2200. And, boy do the prices of the
used cameras vary.
  Any guidance and help would be well received.
  Thanks,

  George Callender
  Virginia Beach, VA

PS. Are there companies out there that have proved reliable in the
second hand market? At present am planning on "most likely" buying from
Tamarkin in New York.