Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2006/09/29
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]Slobodan, were you referring to B.D. or me? ;-) If you hand a DSLR to a Pan Troglodyte, will it Homo Sapiens with the LCD? Cheers Hoppy -----Original Message----- From: Slobodan Dimitrov [mailto:s.dimitrov@charter.net] Sent: Saturday, 30 September 2006 01:25 To: Leica Users Group Subject: Re: [Leica] A digital camera without..... I think the proper term is simian ape. And yes, any well trained simian ape can be driven to make a superlative image, with any medium. Slobodan Dimitrov On Sep 29, 2006, at 8:20 AM, B. D. Colen wrote: > Well, it may not be either polite or helpful, Hoppy, it's true - > and written > in response to the kind of nonsense we've seen posted over the past > couple > days about the ability of any monkey to be a great photographer with > digital, etc. > > As to glass plates v film v digital - market penetration doesn't > have a damn > thing to do with it; the transition from film to digital represents > a sea > change in capture medium - in the way in which we use light to > record what > we see in front of us. And it's the same kind of change we had when > we went > from glass plates to film - moving from one capture medium to > another. The > fact that there were far fewer people making photographs prior to > film is > not the issue. Yes, the creation of film democratized photography. > But then > so is the cell phone camera democratizing photography. ( Don't > forget there > were many outstanding photographers and editors who scoffed at 35 > mm cameras > as 'toys' as 35 was taking over ;-) ) > > Sorry, Hoppy, but things have changed in a profound way. If one > prefers > using film, great - there's still film and processing available, so > go for > it. But at the same time, I think that no matter how much one loves > film, > one has to recognize that it is fast becoming an artifact of an > earlier age. > Yes, there are still areas of photography in which film is superior to > digital, and dominant. And yes, film will undoubtedly be with us > for eons to > come as a 'fine art' medium. But even today, digital and > photography have > become synonymous. > > So I guess the bottom line is - things change; get used to it > (please), > which is not to say that one shouldn't shoot film if one wants to > do so. :-) > > B. D. > > > > > On 9/29/06 9:26 AM, "G Hopkinson" <hoppyman@bigpond.net.au> wrote: > >> B.D. that's a bit simplistic, suggesting that digital vs film is >> analogous to >> film vs glass plates. I doubt that glass plates had >> the same sort of market penetration that 35mm film has. >> No question that digital has the majority of the market, but film >> still >> remains viable currently. >> People may choose to use either or both mediums right now. >> Sayings "things change - get used to it" is neither polite nor >> helpful in my >> view. >> >> Politely Hoppy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: B. D. Colen [mailto:bd@bdcolenphoto.com] >> Sent: Friday, 29 September 2006 21:14 >> To: Leica Users Group >> Subject: Re: [Leica] A digital camera without..... >> >> Or, even more simply put - you want a digital camera? Buy one. You >> don't? >> Don't buy one - stick with film as long as you can; there were >> undoubtedly >> people who stuck with glass plates. >> >> Things change - get used to it. >> >> By the way -the 'hi-speed' frame rate on the digital M8 is the >> same as the >> hi-speed frame rate on an M6 with an Abrahamson winder. Oh, and if >> you don't >> want to look at the LCD? Don't look it it. If you're chimping it's >> your >> fault - not the camera's. ;-) >> >> >> On 9/29/06 1:24 AM, "Nathan Wajsman" <nathan@nathanfoto.com> wrote: >> >>> I would not buy a digital camera without a screen, simply because it >>> would need to have so many little buttons and wheels in lieu of >>> the menu >>> structure that it would be an ergonomic nightmare. >>> >>> As for the general comments about "too many features" in digital >>> SLRs, >>> the solution is simple--don't use them! The only controls I ever >>> use on >>> mine are switching between manual and aperture priority modes, >>> setting >>> the ISO speed, changing shutter speed or aperture and formatting the >>> memory card. That's it. I never chimp. My LCD is set to display the >>> picture and its histogram for 3 seconds after taking the picture, >>> just >>> so that I can take a quick peak at the histogram if I am so >>> inclined. >>> Since I shoot RAW only, my white balance setting is permenantly >>> on AUTO. >>> And so on. >>> >>> The many features of a 1-series Canon are all there, but they >>> certainly >>> don't get in the way of my photography. I have set up the camera >>> the way >>> I like it (regarding focus points etc.) and left it like that >>> ever since. >>> >>> All this reminds me of some of the complaining about the aperture >>> priority mode in the M7 or even the presence of a light meter in >>> the M6 >>> (the indications in the viewfinder were distracting etc.). >>> Solution is >>> simple: if you don't like AE mode, then don't use it; if you >>> don't like >>> the light meter in your M6, then take the battery out. >>> >>> Nathan >>> >>> David Rodgers wrote: >>>> Digital cameras have many features. I'm wondering if some >>>> wouldn't be >>>> better off with fewer. For instance, what if there was a digital >>>> camera >>>> without an LCD preview screen? It'll probably never happen. And >>>> maybe >>>> it's not realistic to think it ever would. But if anyone could have >>>> bucked the trend it would have been Leica. What if Leica hadn't >>>> put an >>>> LCD on the M8? We'd have screamed, for sure. But might not the >>>> M8 have >>>> been a better camera for it? Here's why. >>>> >>>> 1) no chimping. My first reaction after snapping the shutter on any >>>> digital camera is to look at the screen to see if I "got it"! >>>> The irony >>>> of that is that if I didn't get it I probably just wasted a second >>>> opportunity because I was too busy looking at the LCD. And so >>>> what if I >>>> didn't get it? What are my options? Unless I can fly around the >>>> world at >>>> the speed of light and turn back time, it's too late. What time >>>> I might >>>> have had I just wasted...chimping. >>>> >>>> Consider the case of someone having closed eyes in a shot. It takes >>>> longer to verify that there were no closed eyes than to shoot 5 >>>> frames, >>>> which was the old cure for closed eyes. With the M8 we shoot 5 >>>> frames in >>>> 2.5 seconds. That's less time that it takes to analyze the LCD. >>>> Not to >>>> mention, "Sorry but Uncle Bob had his left eye half shut. >>>> Everyone line >>>> up again!" or "Sir could I please get you to walk back under >>>> that bird. >>>> I see in my preview window that you didn't have quite the >>>> expression I'd >>>> hoped for when it crapped on your shoulder." >>>> >>>> Perhaps we need to see images so we can delete the bad ones and >>>> save >>>> card space. Yet isn't that one big benefit of digital cameras >>>> over film? >>>> Each frame is essentially free, and I'm less constrained by the >>>> roll of >>>> 36. Why not just delete bad images later, after they are >>>> downloaded? >>>> >>>> 2) save space inside the camera. I don't know how much room the LCD >>>> takes up, but I'm sure it takes up some. Do away with the LCD >>>> and you >>>> can make a smaller camera body. Or better yet, allocate that >>>> space to >>>> sensor electronics. (Apart for the M8 place more emphasis on a good >>>> viewfinder. Heck, on many a P&P the LCD has replaced the >>>> viewfinder). On >>>> the M8 I'm sure having an LCD meant having a fatter camera. >>>> >>>> 3) Longer battery life. That's not a big issue, but it could be in >>>> certain circumstances. Sure I can turn off the LCD. But it's still >>>> there. >>>> >>>> 4) Longer camera life. Might the LCD be the first thing to go? >>>> OK, so I >>>> might be reaching here. I guess we don't really look at cameras >>>> long >>>> term today. >>>> >>>> 5) Less fear of pressing nose up to back of camera. No explanation >>>> needed. >>>> >>>> OK, I'm sure by now everyone is saying that we still need access >>>> to the >>>> menu. After all we've got options to deal with. A simple shutter >>>> speed >>>> dial and aperture ring may have been satisfactory way back when, >>>> but now >>>> we need to toggle through a thousand and one configuration choices. >>>> Today a simple situation calls for >>>> "Shades-Down-Red-22-Right-Bleed-Dive-Trips-All-Go" when yester- >>>> year the >>>> most complex situation we had to deal with called for >>>> "Sunny-16-and-Hail-Mary"? >>>> >>>> The ability to immediately see results has detracted from the >>>> discipline >>>> it takes to make sure we get it right in the first place. >>>> "Polaroid-like-instant-view-ability" is very >>>> un-"Leica-M-and-the-decisive-moment"-like. >>>> >>>> For those who absolutely must have a preview device here's the >>>> solution. >>>> Leica could have offered an LCD as an accessory. Not on the >>>> camera, but >>>> a small monitor you could put in your pocket. It would have its own >>>> battery pack, control buttons, and it would easily plug into the >>>> M8. >>>> Best of all, just like bright-line finders it could easily be >>>> misplaced >>>> allowing Leica yet another source of ongoing revenue. Someone on >>>> the >>>> selling side obviously didn't think through all the advantages. >>>> >>>> daveR >>>>