Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2003/07/17
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]Marc James Small wrote: >At 08:22 PM 7/16/03 -0600, Greg J. Lorenzo wrote: > >>I suspect that Collins arguable brilliance emanates from the same rare >>cookbook's you were quoting from last week in the fascinating British >>Isles "hard cooked" versus "hard boiled" egg exchange. I suggest that >>you never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes you time and annoys the >>pig. >> > >Greg > >It is clear that something I said got under your skin, though I have no >idea what it might have been. But kindly cease attempting to use personal >invective to bolster your shaky arguments. > You're arguing that a rather obscure IRA leader is some world renowned guerilla leader and guru whose capabilities and feats exceeded or even belong to be mentioned in the same sentence as Mao Tse-Tung and Ho Chi Minh and you call my arguments shaky? >The Soviets based their guerilla training on the IRA campaign of 1917 to >1922, and the study of this campaign was the basis of the training received >by Ho and Mao and Tito. It would seem that the very persons you laud so >highly were simply applying the lessons written by the Big Fellow. > I believe it is a matter of historical fact that the Soviet Union came into being between the counter revolution against Kerensky's government of 1917 and the defeat of the last of the White Russian armies in 1922. Stalin and the Soviet Union wouldn't give Mao the time of day and actually maintained good relations with the Nationalist Chinese until their final defeat and retreat to Taiwan. > > >And you completely neglect the nature of British rule in Ireland. It was >most arrogant, most self-assured, and most eager to respond to resistance >with great force. It was almost completely uncorruptible which is what >makes the situation in Ireland radically different from other such >campaigns, most remarkably China and Cuba. In 1917, probably 75% of the >Southern Irish supported continued British governance while working >peacefully towards some sort of Home Rule. By 1919, less than 10% of the >Southern Irish felt this way, and governance by the Sinn Fein was a >reality. This was not simply a matter of exploiting British errors, though >their attempt to extend Conscription to Ireland was perceived by most >Southern Irish as a direct insult. Rather, Collins developed the >mechanisms for transferring the loyalty of the populace from the UK to the >Irish State. Collins organized the Irish government, funded it without >confiscation, defended it without undue bloodshed, and showed the Irish and >the world that the Irish were indeed capable of self-governance. (He was >also a magnificent pragmatist, which is why he was killed by former >compatriots fighting a war of politically unrealistic principles.) > The fact that I can't accept your assertion of Collins relative status as a brilliant guerilla leader doesn't mean I'm neglecting it. I'm just giving it the consideration it is due. BTW, all government rule is by it's very nature arrogant, self assured and eager to respond to resistance with force. All peoples are quite capable of governing themselves and should govern themselves. What is your source for the above statistics as it is rather unlikely that anyone polled the Irish on any subject in 1917 and 1919? I suspect you are using statistics like a drunk, for support rather than illumination. I doubt that even the English can look back today on their rule of Ireland as anything other than what it was. The Irish Potato Famine provides just one shameful example. All that said still doesn't make Collins arguably the most brilliant guerilla leader of the 20th Century. BTW, if Collins funded his insurgency by confiscation I suspect he'd have been killed much sooner pragmatic or not. Regards, Greg > > >I would recommend that you refresh your memory both by consulting any of >the modern works on insurgency operations or, better yet, reviewing modern >Irish scholarship, especially Tim Pat Coogan's books on Collins and the >Long Fellow, de Valera. > >Marc > >msmall@infionline.net FAX: +540/343-7315 >Cha robh bąs fir gun ghrąs fir! > >-- >To unsubscribe, see http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html > - -- To unsubscribe, see http://mejac.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/unsub.html