Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 2001/08/04

[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]

Subject: [Leica] Re: Leica Users digest V20 #217
From: Peter Klein <pklein@2alpha.net>
Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 16:21:25 -0700

Re. my comparison of Tri-X shots from the 70s and this year,

 > 1972: http://www.2alpha.com/~pklein/oldpics/framer.htm (Tri-X, D76 1:1,
 > DR 50 Summicron).

 > 2001: http://www.2alpha.com/~pklein/currentpics/mischabutter.jpg 
(Tri-X  2001,  processing by Kodak in T-Max developer, 35mm pre-asph Summicron.

  Mark Rabiner says:

>Geese Peter! not real scientific to put it mildly! If you only had run the 
>later
>Tri x in D76 1:1 as well we'd have a real comparison!!
>Many people (Erwin perhaps?) feel tri x had gone downhill over the 
>decades. aint
>what it used to be.
>Its true that "half and half" is really "one third - two thirds" so i'd 
>belive anything.
>Tri harder x...

Mark, I'm starting to understand you, and that scares me  :-)  :-)  :-)

Yep, the difference in lenses and developers makes it very unscientific 
indeed.  However, it does gibe with other people's results I've 
seen.  Tri-X today seems significantly less grainy and sharper than it was 
back in the Age of Aquarius.  Through a magnifier, there is certainly a 
level of detail in the newer shot that just isn't there in the older 
one.  But you're right, too many variables, not statistically 
significant.  Now that I think about it, I can't really be sure if the 2001 
shot was souped in D76 or Microdol-X--I used both back then.

When I start souping my own film again, I will probably try D76 again, 
although the lure of Xtol is quite strong.  It's interesting how several 
people here think Tri-X is much better with Xtol, Photo techniques site 
says that Tri-X was one of the few films that was *NOT* appreciably better 
with Xtol.

See http://www.phototechmag.com/buying_b-w.htm  (the site is down right 
now, but I have a printout from it)

No one has yet answered my question about Tri-X in T-Max developer: Is this 
a significant improvement over D76 1:1?  Or does Kodak processing do it 
this way for economic reasons short development times, one chemical for all 
B&W films)?

>The fact that Ansel Adams shot and got such results from it in medium 
>format (in
>the 1970's) instead of 100 speed films or slower (on his tripod) is something
>(and in HC-110 yet) that many have to toss and turn over every night after
>running their 100 speed sheet film in an acutance developer.
>The world is only interesting because of all the aberrations, aberrances, and
>anomalies.
>Not to mention the aborigines!

I think the key word here is "Medium Format."  Also, isn't Tri-X 
Professional different from 35mm Tri-X?

Mxsmanic, aka Anthony des Beaux Images de Paris, says:

>I've had photos that looked like both, all taken with the current version of
>Tri-X.  I think it depends on the conditions of the photo, the 
>development, and
>the scan, not the film, although I understand that Tri-X has been slightly
>modified at least once since its introduction.

The same Photo Techniques article I refer to above says that Tri-X has been 
"continually and incrementally improved at least until the introduction of 
the T-Max films."

>The 1972 photo is slightly overexposed, I think.  Pull those shadows down and
>it'll look a lot like the 2001 photo.  The 1972 photo looks cleaner, actually,
>but that is probably because there was less contrast in the original scene, or
>something (there are multiple possibilities).

and shino@ubspainewebber.com says:
 >
 > > i think it's a very nice photo, and a very nice scan.
 > > the tonality of the overalls and the texture of the
 > > walls are nicely captured. it would have been very
 > > easy to crank the contrast up too much.

The 2001 photo was taken in a dimly-lit, contrasty restaurant, exposure was 
around 1/60 at f/2 or 1/30 at f/2.8, metered off my hand in the same 
lighting and opening up one stop.  I actually increased the contrast a bit 
in Irfanview.  The 1972 photo was taken on a cloudy-bright April midday, 
facing south, so everything is probably a little flat.  I made it a bit 
more contrasty than the initial scan came up--much more than that and it 
started to look "wrong."

Both were scanned with VueScan, where I experimented with the black and 
white points a bit.  Then added a bit of contrast and gamma adjustment in 
Irfanview.

Back in 1972, I developed everything for available light (ie. get some 
shadow detail, and fix the rest in printing).  I used D76 1:1, but there 
was a period where I used Microdol-X 1:3 before going back to D76.  I used 
Agfa Gevagam paper and a #3 VC filter for my "normal" negs.  I think I also 
had a box of #5 paper for those really thin negs.

All this meant that outdoor B&W shots were not always processed 
optimally.   I also probably agitated too much--a common problem for those 
of us who came of age in the 60s... :-)   Then again, I remember the 60s, 
so, as the saying goes, maybe I  wasn't really there...

Thanks to everybody for the comments.

- --Peter

Replies: Reply from "Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> (Re: [Leica] Re: Leica Users digest V20 #217)