RE: [Leica] Re: Warranty & New vs. Used

["Austin Franklin" <darkroom@ix.netcom.com>]

> >> My comment above was made regarding Austin's assertion that Leica gear
> >> costed more in the U.S. than anywhere else, which is simply not true.
> >
> >Unless you know all the costs involved (price from Leica to importer in
> >country X, price it costs for importer X to bring the camera into the
> >country, and then price importer X charges to the dealer), you
> can't begin
> >to know that it is true or not.
>
> Nor can you. Do *you* know all the costs involved? If so, why not reveal
> them? If not, why not acknowledge that instead of maintaining that you are
> right without offering any data to back up your claims?

Sure I can.  It's not rocket science to know the USA importers are getting a
significant percentage off USA gear!  I know what duties are for camera gear
brought in to the US.  I know what shipping costs are from Germany to the
US.  I know that I can buy the EXACT same item from a seller in HK for %30
less than I can buy USA gear.  That's all I need to know!

> But that
> doesn't stop you from making blanket statements like: "we pay more for
> camera gear in the US than anywhere else in the world," that you
> are unable
> to justify because *you* do not have the facts.

The meaning of my statement was (I believe) the US importers charge more
than in other countries.  You have NOT refuted that at all.  You may choose,
as you have, to try to read into what my statement meant in the first place,
just to suit your errant means, but I know exactly what I meant, and have
qualified it many times, and you continue to ignore it to suit your own
needs.

> So I ask again: what are the importing duties and taxes that you are
> referring to here and, supposedly, in your original post? Or were these
> claims made without any factual data to back them up?

I do not know what the importing duties/taxes are outside the US, but in the
US, for camera gear, they are very small, if any at all.  For camera bodies
brought into the US, there are no duties.  Lenses are subject to a 2.3%
duty, and accessories a 5.8% duty.  If the body and lense are together, they
are not subject to duty.

> >You might be right that some other countries importers are
> marking up Leica
> >gear more than the US is...
>
>
> If you mean that Leica gear costs more in certain other countries than in
> the US - before and after taxes - I am right, and I think I have
> demonstrated that.

No, in fact, you haven't demonstrated either.  What you have shown are two
figures that have no relative bearing, since you don't know the itemized
costs involved.

> >...but you haven't shown legitimate data to substantiate that.
>
>
> I have given more data than you,

Unqualified data, that needs much more data to make it meaningful.

> and you're the one who started this whole
> thread. In fact, you've offered *no* data whatsoever to substantiate your
> claims.

The data I have, and goes undisputed, is that you can buy gray market gear
for less, that is a fact, and you can not dispute that.  THAT IS DATA that
you seem to completely ignore, because it apparently does not suit your
needs.

> And Leica gear can also be purchased elsewhere for more than what we pay
> here in the US,

BUT YOU DON'T KNOW WHY, so that claim is completely amorphous!  The FACT is,
you can ALSO purchase it for far less!

> as I and other Luggers have pointed out. That Leica USA is
> taking on a hefty sum for themselves I do not doubt, but this doesn't
> change the fact that others elsewhere are paying more for the same stuff.

You are arguing for either the sake of arguing, or just to be annoying.  You
now agree that you believe Leica USA is taking a "hefty sum" for themselves,
which was my ONLY point.  You still haven't proven at all that "others
elsewhere" are paying more, since you aren't including all the costs
involved.

It's like comparing property tax between Mass and New Hampshire.  NH has
VERY high property tax....but they have no state sales tax, nor any income
tax.  It isn't an "honest" comparison, since other factors are involved that
aren't stated in the initial statement.  Your comparisons are not honest.

> About that you were wrong, and that was my point in responding to your
> original statement:

But you haven't shows that I was wrong about what I claimed, nor have you
shown I was wrong about what you tried to change it to, except if you ignore
the facts.

> >How come no other country gets "abused", price wise, like the US does for
> >camera goods?
>
> And just for the record, I fail to see in which part of that statement you
> are referring importing duties and taxes, as opposed to list prices and
> sales taxes.

You fail at a lot of things here.  I was talking about Leica USA profits,
not importing duties and taxes, which I have said SO many times, but you
refuse to understand.  The importers have NO control over the import duties
and taxes, and you know that.  It is not a profit the importers make.

You apparently want to read what you want into my statement, instead of
understanding what I meant by the statement, which I have stated over and
over and you intentionally fail to understand.  I know exactly what I meant
by what I said, and even though I've qualified it entirely, you still just
want to argue something that I didn't mean.

> instead of just arguing down anyone who takes issue
> with your unsubstantiated claims?

Your claim go unsubstantiated, not mine!  I know you have to know that gray
market gear is cheaper than US gear, and that is ALL it takes to
substantiate my claim, period.  And the fact is you can't refute that, and
you know it.