Re: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????

["Simon Lamb" <simon@sclamb.com>]

Matt

I asked the same questions when I went the Leica HQ in the UK.  They stated
that in the UK a 'demo' means any equipment that has been used by a sales
rep either on the road to show to potential dealers, or on a stand at a
show.  In this instance, when the equipment is returned to Leica UK they put
a stamp on the box and affix a star to the passport application form to
denote that the equipment is ex-demo.  When the passport is returned it
should also have a star affixed to it so that future purchasers will know
the origins of the goods.  All such equipment would be checked by the Leica
technical staff before being shipped out to dealers for sale.

If a dealer has a piece of equipment and he has taken it out of the box to
show to prospective purchasers then it is up to that dealer to disclose that
fact and offer the goods at a reduced price as ex-demonstration.  There will
not however be anything on the box or paperwork to denote that fact that the
goods are ex-demo.  But then, if it has been handled but not removed from
the shop then I do not particularly care as long as the dealer removes any
fingermarks.

I do have some sympathy for dealers here.  Take the Noctilux.  There is a
dealer in London who has a Noctilux in his shop.  I looked at it some time
ago and he removed if from the box and mounted it on a camera so that I
could assess the amount of intrusuion into the viewfinder.  I did not buy it
at the time so he put it back in the box and back in the glass cabinet.
Given that no dealer would hold large stock of the Noctilux, should I be
able to return to the shop later and ask for a discount because the goods
are 'ex-demo'?  This seems unfair, since one has to be able to look at goods
before deciding whether to make a purchase, and the dealer should be able to
show goods without immediately making them 'ex-demo'.

Simon

Matt Morgan wrote:

> Rich,
> As I am just in the process of buying a "demo' lens, (from a reputable and
> known dealer) and want to make sure I'm not a mug, could you please
enlarge
> on the term `demo'?
> If a lens is sold as a demo, should I expect it to have only been used in
> the same store for potential customers to just put it on a camera and look
> through it? What other use could it have had? Could it be a return?
> How much wear would a demo lens expect before it is then sold on?
> If it is demo, why would the store sell it, instead of keeping it for
quite
> a period of time, or are demo's supposed to be constantly renewed?
> What are the signs I should look for and check when buying?
> Lastly, what is an average discount from the dealer's selling price (not
> full-list price) that should be expected for a demo?
> Apologies for so many questions, but as I'm spending a lot of money in a
> very short time I'd like to save a chunk if I can trust `demo' gear.
> However, I'd always rather pay the full amount for new than risk buying
> inferior kit.
> Thanks, Matt.
>
> ----------
> >From: Photovilla@aol.com
> >To: leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> >Subject: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????
> >Date: Thu, Aug 24, 2000, 6:41 pm
> >
>
> > <<Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 20:40:52 -0400
> >
> > From: Austin Franklin <austin@darkroom.com>
> >
> > Subject: [Leica] "B Grade" Leica gear????
> >
> > Message-ID: <01C00E0B.9A963BE0@user-2ive2l5.dialup.mindspring.com>
> >
> > References:
> >
> >
> > I just got off the phone with a camera dealer in California (he was not
> >
> > trying to sell me anything) who insists that all camera manufacturers
sell
> >
> > A grade and B grade equipment...even C and lower grade.
> >
> >
> > He claims the B grade is what is sold by the mail order outfits
(typically
> >
> > called "Gray Market")...and is why they can offer the lower prices.
> >
> >
> > The only marking distinction between any of the grades is a sticker on
the
> >
> > item...and he said these stores just pull the stickers off.
Manufacturers
> >
> > will always have some items that don't 'meet spec' and these 'inferior'
> >
> > grade products, are what become B grade products, as opposed to fixing
> >
> > them, or throwing them away...
> >
> >
> > It tees me off that if this is true, the manufacturers don't physically
> >
> > mark the products as B grade...  He said Hasselblad sells this grade as
> >
> > 'demo' equipment...but again, the item it self isn't marked with
anything
> >
> > but a sticker.  What about the used equipment market, how do you know if
> >
> > you are buying an A grade or a B grade?
> >
> >
> > It would appear that even new equipment can be 'not so good'...
> >
> >
> > What does anyone else know about this?>>
> >
> > While I doubt any of this is actually true...I can say that I have never
> > found any grey market gear with a sticker on it indicating it was some
sort
> > of different grade.
> >
> > I have imported gear from:
> >
> > Germany
> > Hong Kong
> > Italy
> > Holland
> > Switzerland
> > Austria
> > Singapore
> > Cayman Islands
> >
> > ...and maybe a few others and I have never found a single difference
beyond
> > the paperwork. I have also had some really REALLY picky customers come
to the
> > showroom and compare gear atom-for-atom and never come up with anything.
> >
> > Perhaps Joseph Yao is still on the list and can shed more light on the
> > subject, if there is anything to it. I'd like to hear it too. It would
> > actually be a great sales-pitch for someone who sold only USA gear too.
;->
> >
> >
> >
> > later,
> > Rich
> >
>