Re: [Leica] Re:

["Timothy R. Kuntz" <covbldrs@usit.net>]

Brian ( and  Marc ) -

  (For all - since the written page tells nothing of one's frame of mind, let me say that in context of reading a lot of flaming emails, I am deeply concerned at the personal attacks (NOT from Brian or Marc) and very thankful for both of their remarks and taking the RESPONSIBILITY to address these issues.)

  We are, by and large, in agreement.  We all interpret things from our own perspective.  This arena is large enough to that someone will be offended at most everything that is said.  It is simply because of the ambiguities of our language and the diverse perspectives.  I did not mean to imply that I had a right to decide for you or anyone else what was or was not offensive.  I meant only that when we say something it will in our forum be misinterpreted.  

  For example, your comment on teachers did not offend me - but it could have, and at one time would have, because of my passion for teaching  and from my hearing so many comments on how well they got paid and how much they didn't have to work (long vacations).  Vacations became the place to get low paying part time jobs to make up for the other low-paying 180 day job.  (And you made the jump from that to earning less - you have my admiration.)

  We are in total agreement regarding the taking of responsibility to addressing the cruelty of the ethnic jokes.  I disagree with you in the perception that you've received little reward for your battles - the payoff is in two major areas: first, the direct benefit to those slandered (which may never be expressed), and second, it has built your integrity. 

  I have always been impressed with the quality of character of all the Leica owners/users I've met personally.    The personal attacks are far too out of character.  

  Humor is based on irony - the conflict between what is and what should be.  It is a great tool for teaching - it can drive home values without having to get personal.  It is a common tool of expression of the frustrations of life - if nothing else laugh at the situation we're in.  It can, and here has, been taken across the line and made personal.

  I think from this reflection that I'm changing my perspective a little on humor.  I value the role of the court jester - who for the sake of humor often had freedom of speech - in order to be both good in humor and to provide a sounding board for the monarch.  In that context, I've often said that nothing should be sacred from it.  There needs to be concern and understanding governing my expression of humor.  

  Brian & Marc - thanks for your voicing your concerns regarding these issues.  I think we have a common goal for this group.

Tim K

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bryan Caldwell" <bcaldwell@softcom.net>
To: <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 11:49 PM
Subject: [Leica] Re: 


Tim,

Please do not decide for me what is offensive and what is not. Anders posted
that he found it extremely offensive that a lawyer could be named "kindly."
I told Anders I was offended by this and he agreed. He posted an apology for
his comment and I immediately thanked him for doing so.

I'm puzzled as to how my comment about teachers' vacations could be taken as
offensive. I didn't cast any negative asperions with my comment. It was a
reference to the fact that I took a 30% pay cut to become a lawyer _without_
factoring in the fact that as a teacher I was contracted to work 181 day per
year and as a lawyer, I have two weeks vacation per year. If you pro-rate my
teacher's salary, I took substantially more than a 30% pay cut.

Public school teachers get longer vacations than many other professions.
This is a fact - unlike a statement that lawyers should not be named
"kindly" or some of the other comments to which I've taken offense.

Please understand that I've put my heart and soul into the practice of law.
I fight uphill battles everyday and receive very few rewards for it. I will
always find lawyer jokes to be cruel, offensive and no different than jokes
about religious views, etc.

Even if you don't understand my attitude, I would think that common courtesy
would cause people to refrain from jokes that they know offend others.

Think about what you are most passionate about in life. Then imagine that
everywhere you turned people who really didn't understand what you did
singled out your passion for cruel comments, snide remarks and derisive
attempts at humor. And then when you politely tried to bring this to their
attention they further derided you for being too sensitive and decided to
take the opportunity to make further comments and to encourage others to do
so.

Not a very pretty world is it?


Bryan



- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy R. Kuntz" <covbldrs@usit.net>
To: <leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 7:21 PM


> Brian, Marc (et al.) -
>
> Drive on!  Let me repeat, the best humor is that which people tell about
THEMSELVES.
>
> Could I have gotten offended at Brian's remark about teachers' long
vacations?  Sure, but I've worked most of mine to make ends meet.  And
having left education to go to manufacturing I'm still putting in over 70
hours getting paid for 40.
>
> The point is that my experience is no different than yours.
>
> We owe it to ourselves to police the tone of our comments.  Sure there
will be missunderstandings - and we've seen some awesome resolutions to
these - but let's be a little more professional by doing two things: a) cast
a few less stones, and b) not react so quickly.
>
> Thanks,
>   Tim K
>