Re: [Leica] SOFTLY RELEASE YOURSELF

[Walter S Delesandri <walt@jove.acs.unt.edu>]

Of course, the $39.95 was a jab....and yes, the "half" price retail 
was a mistake..... I the last new M-winder I saw was about $450, US --
I have been corrected.

As for your other points, yes, I've held an the rapid winder.  I think
it's a wonderful piece.  I haven't used it.  As for my background in 
photography, I won't comment.  References on request, but I doubt
they'll mean anything to the Leica group. (seriously)

HOWEVER< I've not only repaired, but used and owned an SM Leicavit,
a Canon VI-T, and I've overhauled and used but not owned a now rare 
MP-and-Leicavit owned by the now late (I think) "hack" Miller -- a 
semi-retired journalist in Houston in the early 80s.  In every case, 
I preferred the single stroke wind lever (which the MP didn't have,
of course.)  Your results may vary.  On the subject of Houston, if 
there are any Houstonian photogs on the group, I did learn Leica 
repair from Karl Stumpf ---THE leica shop in Houston where I worked 
at the time.  I also went through the poor National Camera training 
in the late 70s.  I gave up camera repair for reasons that should be 
obvious by looking at the "evolution"? of cameras in the 80s and 90s.

BUT!!!!  While these rapid winders are BEAUTIFULLY built, they're 
not complicated.  With the >uninflated< street price of Winder-Ms
(the normal one that was introduced with the M-6) around $4-500, 
it is INFINITELY more complicated than an rapid winder.  Of course, 
the $39.00 japanese jab was a joke,  It should be possible for an 
aftermarket company to build one for $250, street price, in limited 
quantities.  No, I haven't tried.  But folks are marketing 3rd party 
WINDERS for cheap SLRs for $99.  $250 would still be high, but 
manageable and sane for those who LIKE rapid winders.

I don't understand it.  Photographers get together in the lab or in 
a bar and argue and poke and bitch and everyone gains from it.  
These reflectors are amazing.  It's almost like a small town 
paper where you can't criticize the advertisers because they're 
the publisher's brother-in-law AND on the city council.  Leicas 
have FAULTS.  They have areas of VERY poor design, and the final 
assembly, adjustment, and 'infant' mortality of them is among the 
worst in the industry.  But they're the only game in town (I'm talking
M-s of course, the ONLY reason to own Leica)  If there was a REAL 
competitor, they'd have to get it together AND lower the damn price.
As would the aftermarket accessories.  They've had their butts kicked 
in the market already.  

Final heresy:
The 'BEST' camera ever built was the late 60s Nikon F. Period. 
The best-built lenses were the same vintage Nikkors. period.
The SP was decent, on a par with the slightly funky pre-7 Canon 
bodies.  I'm talking about durability, adjustment, etc.  Hell, 
Leica even removed the eccentric adjustment on the damn RFDR
vertical, and then shipped the cameras slightly out of adjustment, 
requiring a tremendous amount of labor to correct!  Oh, they're 
close enough, but is that Leica's attitude?

Yes, it's a love affair with Leica.  I share in some of it.  I'd 
keep my Leica Ms, warts and all.  But I'd JUMP on a reasonable 
competitor for day in, day out photography.  And I believe that 
the aftermarket manufacturers are pricing their gear at the top 
of "what people will pay".  Look at the Adorama lenses (no, I don't 
use them).  What is their margin on those VS other 3rd party 
lenses for SLRs?  They KNOW that with a 21 elmarit at $1800 street 
price, that people "will pay" three times as much as they will for 
a Nikon mount aftermarket.

As for my background and opinions, it's like I told a self-proclaimed 
liberal professor friend -- he believes in ABSOLUTE freedom of 
speech -- so long as you agree with him!  Otherwise, suffer the 
wrath.....

Will, where are you when I need you?

WaltOn
Sat, 14 Nov 1998, Ted Grant wrote:

> Walter S Delesandri wrote:
> 
> >R.e the price of the Abrahamson (sp?) release buttons : look at the
> >m4-2-M6 rapid winder!!  ("leicavit")  -- you can buy a NEW, CURRENT
> >motor in the most expensie salon store CHEAPER!!!  Any good Japanese
> >kitchen appliance manufacturer could make a good one for $39.95 retail.
> 
> Gee Walt,
> 
> You sure know your photo business. Boy I didn't know the Japanese were
> making a winder for the M camera at the great price of $39.95. I should get
> some in here to Canada for resale, as the "latest M winder" made by Leica
> retails for:
> 
> <<<<<<<a NEW, CURRENT motor in the most expensie salon store CHEAPER!!!>>>>>>>
> 
> as you put it,  at the really cheap price of $900.00 plus taxes which adds
> another 15%. And that doesn't include batteries! How's that grab you for
> cheap?
> And it makes a hell of a racket to boot!
> 
> Now that's way "CHEAPER" than Tom's silent Rapidwinder!
> 
> Excuse me for asking. But have you ever had one of his Rapidwinder's on an
> M6 and used it? I mean really used it? Like during the heat of battle on an
> exciting fast moving assignment!
> 
> Or during an assignment where you can almost hear people breathing and you
> don't want them to know you are taking their pictures? And you shoot, then
> need to advance without them knowing you are doing it. Yep you're right, it
> can be done with the normal winder leaver! However in case your not a "left
> eyed" M user you'll not have any idea of what I'm talking about, as you'll
> never have to worry about poking out your right eye while trying to advance
> without taking the camera away from your seeing eye.
> 
> If you happen to have an M camera kicking around there, put it to your left
> eye and then try to advance while still looking through the viewfinder. If
> you accidentally poke yer eye out don't come crying to me about "CHEAPER
> FOOD WINDERS!"
> 
> Besides if you are comparing the Leicavit with the Rapidwinder you are
> sadly mistaken, as the Leicavit was a mickey mouse piece of gear like
> comparing a $39.95 food winder to a Mercedes Rapidwinder of the quality in
> the M camera itself.
> 
> >As for the flames from Mr. Abrahamson and his yes men, YES, I certainly
> >understand the problems of making a limited production product for an
> >elitist market -blahblahblah-  THATs NOT MY PROBLEM>  I know it's a
> >labor of love and you had to sell your kids' shoes to make that last
> >production run................I've heard it all in high-end audio.
> 
> As for the flames? You start 'em, you can expect a warming of the pants,:)
> but not a flame!  On this subject of the Rapidwinder I'm afraid you know
> not of what you speak sir.
> 
> When you have used one for a wee bit then come forth and we can discuss
> this once again on a more serious note. Thank you, sir.
> 
> >BTW, Nigel, the reason I don't like the soft releases made and sold
> >under a dozen importer names, is that I don't like the cheap finish.
> >SOME might feel that finish is worth the extra $8.  Since I carry my
> >leicas in a bag, I quit using them because the bag tripped the shutter
> >everytime I moved (if it was cocked).>>>>>>>
> 
> Well now Walt old fella, here you go again making downer remarks about a
> well made product without ever having the "feel nor use of one." You see
> these are not the nickel and dime things made in plastic or cheap materials
> as you refer. They are made equal to the quality of the M cameras they fit.
> Or any other camera one wishes to install them on.
> 
> By golly you sure know how to put folks off a tad goin' on about things
> you've never had in hand. That's OK though, as everyone is allowed their
> opinion. But there are so many folks on the LUG who actually use both the
> Rapidwinder and soft releases for "working time" Walt, that maybe, just
> maybe you might like to know that the photographers shooting for MAGNUM who
> use M cameras, use both the Rapidwinder and soft releases. Now they're cool
> shooters, but the LUGNUTS using them are even "cooler!" :) :)
> 
> I think that might say something. well OK maybe not for a person of your
> experience, but for a one eyed old son of B.....ch like me, both items
> particularly the Rapidwinder, gave a whole new meaning to a working
> photographer with 48 years experience and I'm still shooting! So sir, I do
> know of what I speak!
> 
> No hard feelings old buddy, just one old guy talking to another, as I take
> it from yer posts you are gettin' on like me. :) And I'm never goin' cause
> the devil wont take me and God wont have me. I'm here forever!:) So let's
> take care out there when we shoot at things Leica which we have never had
> experience of. Thanks.
> 
> ted
> 
> 
> 
> 
>