Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 1998/10/28
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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:21:27 +0100
From: Mike Dembinski <mdembin@it.com.pl>
Reply-To: mdembin@it.com.pl
Organization: Medycyna po Dyplomie
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To: mdembin@it.com.pl
Subject: Re: [Leica] Forgery, was: Did I really see a Luftwaffe M2 today?
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.981024133936.28540A-100000@users.excaliber.net>
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Subject:
Re: [Leica] Forgery, was: Did I really see a Luftwaffe M2
today?
Date:
Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:34:52 +0100
From:
Mike Dembinski <mdembin@it.com.pl>
Organization:
Medycyna po Dyplomie
To:
leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
References:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4
Lucien wrote:
> A high percentage of the fakes, I heard of, were from Poland. (Belgium, Canada, England, Germany, Hong
> Kong, Japan and USA might be other sources) Even if the distinction between a restorer and a forger is
> sometime difficult to perceive. :-(
>
> Leitz and Leica have also restored their cameras. (And even changed the color of some of them)
> IMHO a real collectable Leica, is a camera which was never restored, but only serviced. A well know
> dealer from Frankfurt, together with the factory is restoring a lot of M cameras. Those are not fakes but are
> at the very least debatable, IMO. (and too expensive) (ex: M2 with M4 or M4-P back hinged flap, new top
> cover etc...)
>
> > Moral of the story - to Leica fakers - check all known rarities before
> > assigning the serial number!
>
> One of the method used by the forgers was to cut two top covers in two parts in order to forge one camera
> with the correct number. Its easier with painted body to disguise the cut. (Luftwaffe Grey IIIC , black IIIF,
> IIIG, MP, M2, M3, M4, olive M1, M3, M4 etc...) But I also heard of the same method used with fake
> Luxus (gold finish). One have to dismantle the camera to find the proof of the forgery.
>
> An unusually low price from a normaly well informed seller is usually a sign of forgery. (But a high (normal)
> price is not always a sign of honesty either) A like new painted Leica is another warning sign.
> Even new, a painted Leica was never perfect, specially the white filled engravings. The quality of the paint
> used was not so good. That's what is giving that brassy charm to an original camera.
>
> Check also the font used for the engraving. (Ex: The 4 in M4 is not always the correct one etc...)
>
> Fake M-4M-Da or M4-Mot-Da are becomming more common. I've seen 3 of them at the last
> Photo-Puces in Brussels. Two of them at least were questionable.
>
Lucien - thank you so much for this exposition of the dubious practices
of Leica fakers - way more sophisticated than the Moscow or Kiev crowds
(gold FED-based Leica II's excepted - they will probably become
collectable in their own right!). Last year at the Gielda I saw a FED
4A, painted black, with a nameplate stuck on between the R/F and V/F
windows bearing the inscription: 'Leica M5'. To my surprise I saw two
Japanese gents looking at the piece with genuine interest - until one
questioned the existance of a Jupiter-11 lens on it! I almost bought the
thing just as an example of barefaced chutzpuh that only visiting
dealers to the Gielda would attempt. (In the end the guy only wanted 20
bucks for it!)
> BTW, I will love to spend a weekend in Warsaw ;-)
>
> Lucien
>
>
'Doing Warsaw' is a seasons thing; Warsaw in autumn can offer good
shooting only when the sun shines. Otherwise it's a grey miserable city.
It winter, the best days are the bitterly cold, dry days when it's minus
15 degrees C and when passing cars raise dust clouds. Under a crystal
blue sky people walk around wrapped up like Michelin men exhaling huge
clouds of vapour. Its worst in late winter,wet slushy snow, endless days
of oppressive cloud cover. The one day in mid-April, it just snaps to
spring, beautiful women emerge from their heavy-overcoat pupae (like
where have they been for the past six months?) making snaps in the
streets and blossoming parks a treat for street-shooters Summer in
Warsaw is much like it is in any other northern hempishere city.
Architecturally Warsaw is a) rebuilt Old Town, some nice churches and
palaces, b) Stalinist (my favourites - Palace of Culture and
Constitution Square) c) 60s and 70s blocks of flats which go on for
miles and are dull dull dull.
But it is the Gielda Fotograficzna that you all must visit - every
Sunday, 10.00 - 14.00 (except public holidays) at the Stodola student
union hall. It is the photographic intesection for dealers from east and
west, and prices are surprising (in both directions).
And beer is 50c a pint!
One great big minus about Poland - overseas Internet download times are
slow, looking at LUGgers' websites is not a practical proposition at 50
- - 250 bytes per second :-(
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<HTML>
Subject:
<BR>
Re: [Leica] Forgery, was: Did I really see a Luftwaffe M2 today?
<BR> Date:
<BR>
Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:34:52 +0100
<BR> From:
<BR>
Mike Dembinski <mdembin@it.com.pl>
<BR> Organization:
<BR>
Medycyna po Dyplomie
<BR> To:
<BR>
leica-users@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
<BR> References:
<BR>
1 , 2 , 3 , 4
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<P>Lucien wrote:
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>A high percentage of the fakes, I heard of, were from Poland. (Belgium, Canada, England, Germany, Hong
Kong, Japan and USA might be other sources) Even if the distinction between a restorer and a forger is
sometime difficult to perceive. :-(
Leitz and Leica have also restored their cameras. (And even changed the color of some of them)
IMHO a real collectable Leica, is a camera which was never restored, but only serviced. A well know
dealer from Frankfurt, together with the factory is restoring a lot of M cameras. Those are not fakes but are
at the very least debatable, IMO. (and too expensive) (ex: M2 with M4 or M4-P back hinged flap, new top
cover etc...)
> Moral of the story - to Leica fakers - check all known rarities before
> assigning the serial number!
One of the method used by the forgers was to cut two top covers in two parts in order to forge one camera
with the correct number. Its easier with painted body to disguise the cut. (Luftwaffe Grey IIIC , black IIIF,
IIIG, MP, M2, M3, M4, olive M1, M3, M4 etc...) But I also heard of the same method used with fake
Luxus (gold finish). One have to dismantle the camera to find the proof of the forgery.
An unusually low price from a normaly well informed seller is usually a sign of forgery. (But a high (normal)
price is not always a sign of honesty either) A like new painted Leica is another warning sign.
Even new, a painted Leica was never perfect, specially the white filled engravings. The quality of the paint
used was not so good. That's what is giving that brassy charm to an original camera.
Check also the font used for the engraving. (Ex: The 4 in M4 is not always the correct one etc...)
Fake M-4M-Da or M4-Mot-Da are becomming more common. I've seen 3 of them at the last
Photo-Puces in Brussels. Two of them at least were questionable.</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
Lucien - thank you so much for this exposition of the dubious practices
of Leica fakers - way more sophisticated than the Moscow or Kiev crowds
(gold FED-based Leica II's excepted - they will probably become collectable
in their own right!). Last year at the Gielda I saw a FED 4A, painted black,
with a nameplate stuck on between the R/F and V/F windows bearing the inscription:
'Leica M5'. To my surprise I saw two Japanese gents looking at the piece
with genuine interest - until one questioned the existance of a Jupiter-11
lens on it! I almost bought the thing just as an example of barefaced chutzpuh
that only visiting dealers to the Gielda would attempt. (In the end the
guy only wanted 20 bucks for it!)
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>BTW, I will love to spend a weekend in Warsaw ;-)
Lucien
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><BR>'Doing Warsaw' is a seasons thing; Warsaw in autumn can offer good
shooting only when the sun shines. Otherwise it's a grey miserable city.
It winter, the best days are the bitterly cold, dry days when it's minus
15 degrees C and when passing cars raise dust clouds. Under a crystal blue
sky people walk around wrapped up like Michelin men exhaling huge clouds
of vapour. Its worst in late winter,wet slushy snow, endless days of oppressive
cloud cover. The one day in mid-April, it just snaps to spring, beautiful
women emerge from their heavy-overcoat pupae (like where have they been
for the past six months?) making snaps in the streets and blossoming parks
a treat for street-shooters Summer in Warsaw is much like it is in
any other northern hempishere city. Architecturally Warsaw is a) rebuilt
Old Town, some nice churches and palaces, b) Stalinist (my favourites -
Palace of Culture and Constitution Square) c) 60s and 70s blocks of flats
which go on for miles and are dull dull dull.
<P>But it is the Gielda Fotograficzna that you all must visit - every Sunday,
10.00 - 14.00 (except public holidays) at the Stodola student union hall.
It is the photographic intesection for dealers from east and west, and
prices are surprising (in both directions).
<P>And beer is 50c a pint!
<P>One great big minus about Poland - overseas Internet download times
are slow, looking at LUGgers' websites is not a practical proposition at
50 - 250 bytes per second :-(
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR> </HTML>
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