Archived posting to the Leica Users Group, 1996/11/18
[Author Prev] [Author Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Author Index] [Topic Index] [Home] [Search]From: seungmin@luxmail.luxcom.com Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 14:28:05 PST Somebody said that R4S had been as problematic as the earlier R4, which is quite opposite to what I have been hearing from the dealers. According to them, R4S should be fine because Leica simplified the R4 to R4S by taking Programmed and Shutter-priority modes off. These two modes were causing a bunch of problems in the electronic circuits. As far as I know, R4S-P is basically the same as R4S with a little more advancements. Also all the R4's manufactured after Leica introduced R4S-P should be no problem if Leica fixed R4 problems on R4S-P. Any comments on this would be appreciated. This should go in the FAQ, which we will all write when we have more spare time. I have read up on the R4 reliability issue fairly extensively, in most of the published books about Leicas and various "buyers' guides," as well as following mailing lists and newsgroups. Here is a summary of what I figured out: 0. The R4 and its two variants, the R4s and the R4s Mod P (called the R4s Mod 2 in Europe), were in production for eight years. That's a long time. As most Leica amateurs will be aware, Leica often make internal changes to its products without external announcements. Furthermore, some of these changes are "silent recalls," in that service facilities will replace problematic parts in cameras sent in for unrelated repairs. This confuses attempts to differentiate on the basis of serial number the models that are and aren't reliable. 1. When Leica (then Leitz, but I'll just call them Leica) first introduced the R4 in the early 80's, its electronics, manufactured by the British firm Ferranti, were unreliable. Repairs performed by Leica _at that time_ did not result in more reliable cameras -- in fact, many users reported sending the same camera in for repairs many times. Many sane, intelligent people who do not hate Leica have corroborated this. It seems clear that the electronics were simply very unreliable, and Leica management did not own up to this publicly, and Leica failed to come up with a cure for some time. Of course, they could have done worse. They could have chosen Lucas instead of Ferranti. 2. A couple of years later, Leica introduced the R4s, a cheaper version of the R4 with fewer features. I have not heard any reports that R4s models suffered from the same reliability problems that R4 models did, but they might have. 3. Sometime around the mid-80's, R4 models became much more reliable, so that some sane, intelligent people who do not necessarily love all things Leica have reported using these cameras heavily under adverse circumstances and finding them quite reliable. It is possible that this time was exactly when the R4s was introduced, but possibly it was earlier or later. 4. Leica introduced the R4s Mod P (or Mod 2) in the late eighties. I have never heard any accounts that this camera is unreliable. 5. Some "buyers' guides" claim that one can avoid defective R4 variants by buying only models whose first two serial numbers are "16" and greater. These "buyers' guides," which claim to offer expert advice on buying used cameras of all makes, also often make demonstrably inaccurate claims about Leicas and other makes, so I regard their blanket statements on matters like these as less than entirely reliable. Some people claim that R4 variants with serial numbers beginning with "15" and greater are reliable. No one seems to know for sure when the unreliable parts were replaced except Leica, and it seems unlikely that Leica will tell us. 6. I have never heard any accounts of a Leica R4 variant needing repeated repairs by Leica now, in the nineties. Presumably service centers no longer stock the unreliable parts, so a recently fixed R4 variant might well be as reliable as a late R4 variant. But private service facilities might still have stocks of defective parts from the early eighties, and might still employ them, although I do not know of any evidence that this is so. 7. Since I started paying attention a few years ago, I haven't heard anyone say "I bought a Leica R4 variant this year, and the thing broke and had to go to the shop." Maybe the unreliable R4 variants have mostly been fixed already. Maybe not. In answer to your other question: the R4s was missing two program modes present on the R4 and, very importantly for some of us, was missing the little window in the viewfinder that lets one see the manually-set shutter speed. The R4s Mod P (Mod 2) got that little window back and also got some improvements to external controls: the wind lever is fully encased in plastic and the exposure compensation knob is larger, both as on the R5, R6, R7, and their variants. Leica service in New Jersey will upgrade the R4s to show the manually set shutter speed in the viewfinder (like the R4s Mod P) for $275. Presumably this just involves installing Mod P parts. Probably a good private Leica shop could do it more cheaply (and quickly). Personal experience note: for a year, I had a Leica R4s that worked like a clock under heavy use in places like the Great Salt Lake. Its first two serial numbers were "16". I sold it because I really just wanted a second R6, so I got one when I could afford it. If I wanted to get a Leica SLR with automatic modes cheaply, and I didn't need mirror pre-release, I'd buy a Leica R4s. I don't consider it a risky buy. - -Patrick Sobalvarro